# Disputation Between Herman Vleckwijk, Imprisoned By The Lords Of The Country Van Den Vrye In Bruges, And Friar Cornelis, In The Presence Of Mr. Jan Van Dam, On The 1oth Of May, A. D. 1569. · Page 14 of 16 [Previous page: DISPUTATION BETWEEN HERMAN VLECKWIJK, IMPRISONED BY THE LORDS OF THE COUNTRY VAN DEN VRYE IN BRUGES, AND FRIAR CORNELIS, IN THE PRESENCE OF MR. JAN VAN DAM, ON THE 1OTH OF MAY, A. D. 1569.](/en/stories/mm-disputation-between-herman-vleckwijk-imprisoned-by-the-lords-of-the-country-van-den-vrye-in-bruges-and-friar-cornelis-in/part-13/) · [Book contents](/en/sources/martyrs-mirror/#book-contents) · [Next page: DISPUTATION BETWEEN HERMAN VLECKWIJK, IMPRISONED BY THE LORDS OF THE COUNTRY VAN DEN VRYE IN BRUGES, AND FRIAR CORNELIS, IN THE PRESENCE OF MR. JAN VAN DAM, ON THE 1OTH OF MAY, A. D. 1569.](/en/stories/mm-disputation-between-herman-vleckwijk-imprisoned-by-the-lords-of-the-country-van-den-vrye-in-bruges-and-friar-cornelis-in/part-15/) Herm. That Christ was born of the seed of David (as regards the generation of which he was born) we well believe; but the angel said to Joseph: That which is begotten in her is of the Holy Ghost, Matt. 1:20. Again, John 16:28, Christ himself says: I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world. Fr. Corn. Ah, bah, Christ says this of his divinity, that the same proceeded, and came into the world from the Father, and not from his humanity, you stupid Anabaptist. Herm. Why then did Christ say, John 6:62: What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? Again, John 3:13: No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man. Again, Paul says, Eph. 4:9,10: That he ascended; what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens. Fr. Corn. Bah, you stupid Anabaptist, did Christ then come from heaven into Mary with flesh and blood, with skin and hair, entrails and all, as he ascended up to heaven? Bah, what do you say of this, you great, stupid, awkward ass? Herm. I do not say this; but I say that the Word came from heaven, and became flesh in Mary, as John writes in his first chapter. Fr. Corn. And we Catholics say that the most pure blood of Mary became flesh, in spite of your miserable teeth, see. Herm. This defiance to my teeth is a small matter; but this defiance to the holy Scriptures is a great blasphemy. Fr. Corn. Ha, you damned Anabaptist, I do not blaspheme the holy Scriptures; but you revile the holy, blessed, pure virgin Mary. Bah, I am surprised that you do not say, that she conceived her son Christ of her husband Joseph, as your hedge-preachers preach in the Gruthuysbosch; is it not a fine thing? Herm. You wrong us greatly, that you say this of us; for we believe as Matthew writes in his first chapter: “Joseph took his wife, and knew her not till she had brought forth her first born son.” Fr. Corn Ah, bah! did Joseph know her afterwards, eh? Herm. It matters not to me whether he knew her afterwards, or not. Fr. Corn. Indeed? and do you then not believe in the perpetual virginity of the blessed virgin Mary? let us hear now. Herm. We find nothing said in the Scriptures, concerning her perpetual virginity. 762 Fr. Corn. Bah, this accursed Anabaptist would pester me with the Scriptures. Will you then positively believe nothing else but what is contained in the holy Scriptures? Bah, hence it comes that you thus despise, reject and revile the worthy mother of God and imagine, yea, teach and believe that she did the carnal works of the married state with Joseph her husband, just as well as your filthy, sinful wives do with you, and that she had many children by Joseph her husband; bah, is this not a fine thing? Herm. And if she had done the work of the married state with her husband Joseph, and brought forth more children (which is ordained and commanded of God, Gen. 1, and is a blessing) would she thereby have sinned? Fr. Corn. Bah, God blessed Adam and Eve, and said: “Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth,” before they transgressed the commandment; but they did not continue in the blessing, but transgressed the commandment of God, and thereby the work of marriage became sin to them; bah, now you are cornered. Herm. You are cornered yourself; for, Gen. 9:1, it is written: “God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them: Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.” Again, the prophet Jeremiah, in the twenty-ninth chapter, says: “Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: Take ye wives, and beget sons and daughters; and take wives for your sons, and give your daughters to husbands, that they may bear sons and daughters; that ye may be increased.” Fr. Corn. Bah, tush, tush, you have talked enough; bah, hear how much talk there is in this miserable Anabaptist. Bah, now that I hear you talk, I will believe, that you Anabaptists undisguisedly and presumptuously preach out there in the Gruthuysbosch, that Maeyken Timmermans, as regards the work of marriage, was not a hair better than your filthy, unchaste, carnal wives are. Yea, in order utterly to loose the marriage bond, and to show, that women may have divers husbands, you wicked Anabaptists dare preach and teach, that Mary had children of many different husbands, like your wives, whom you have in common—is this not a fine thing? ## Original source [Read this passage on Project Gutenberg](https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/65855/pg65855-images.html#Page_762) [Edition details](https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/65855) [Previous page: DISPUTATION BETWEEN HERMAN VLECKWIJK, IMPRISONED BY THE LORDS OF THE COUNTRY VAN DEN VRYE IN BRUGES, AND FRIAR CORNELIS, IN THE PRESENCE OF MR. JAN VAN DAM, ON THE 1OTH OF MAY, A. D. 1569.](/en/stories/mm-disputation-between-herman-vleckwijk-imprisoned-by-the-lords-of-the-country-van-den-vrye-in-bruges-and-friar-cornelis-in/part-13/) · [Book contents](/en/sources/martyrs-mirror/#book-contents) · [Next page: DISPUTATION BETWEEN HERMAN VLECKWIJK, IMPRISONED BY THE LORDS OF THE COUNTRY VAN DEN VRYE IN BRUGES, AND FRIAR CORNELIS, IN THE PRESENCE OF MR. JAN VAN DAM, ON THE 1OTH OF MAY, A. D. 1569.](/en/stories/mm-disputation-between-herman-vleckwijk-imprisoned-by-the-lords-of-the-country-van-den-vrye-in-bruges-and-friar-cornelis-in/part-15/) --- Page: https://history.truechristian.church/en/stories/mm-disputation-between-herman-vleckwijk-imprisoned-by-the-lords-of-the-country-van-den-vrye-in-bruges-and-friar-cornelis-in/part-14/ [Contribute a correction or addition](https://github.com/trueChristian/history.truechristian.church/issues/new?title=Correction%3A+Disputation+Between+Herman+Vleckwijk%2C+Imprisoned+By+The+Lords+Of+The+Country+Van+Den+Vrye+In+Bruges%2C+And+Friar+Cornelis%2C+In+The+Presence+Of+Mr.+Jan+Van+Dam%2C+On+The+1oth+Of+May%2C+A.+D.+1569.+%C2%B7+Page+14+of+16&body=%23%23+Page+or+topic%0ADisputation+Between+Herman+Vleckwijk%2C+Imprisoned+By+The+Lords+Of+The+Country+Van+Den+Vrye+In+Bruges%2C+And+Friar+Cornelis%2C+In+The+Presence+Of+Mr.+Jan+Van+Dam%2C+On+The+1oth+Of+May%2C+A.+D.+1569.+%C2%B7+Page+14+of+16%0A%0APage%3A+https%3A%2F%2Fhistory.truechristian.church%2Fen%2Fstories%2Fmm-disputation-between-herman-vleckwijk-imprisoned-by-the-lords-of-the-country-van-den-vrye-in-bruges-and-friar-cornelis-in%2Fpart-14%2F%0A%0ARecord%3A+mm-disputation-between-herman-vleckwijk-imprisoned-by-the-lords-of-the-country-van-den-vrye-in-bruges-and-friar-cornelis-in--b00371-o000000%0A%0ADate+currently+shown%3A+1569%0A%0A%23%23+Correction+or+addition%0A%0A%0A%0A%23%23+Sources+and+evidence%0APlease+include+book%2Fpage+references%2C+archive+links%2C+or+first-hand+documentation.%0A%0A%0A%0A%23%23+Image+credit+%28if+applicable%29%0ACreator%2C+source%2C+and+permission+or+public-domain+basis.%0A%0A%0A%0ASubmitted+for+review%3B+this+issue+does+not+publish+changes+automatically.)