# Disputation Between Herman Vleckwijk, Imprisoned By The Lords Of The Country Van Den Vrye In Bruges, And Friar Cornelis, In The Presence Of Mr. Jan Van Dam, On The 1oth Of May, A. D. 1569. · Page 15 of 16 [Previous page: DISPUTATION BETWEEN HERMAN VLECKWIJK, IMPRISONED BY THE LORDS OF THE COUNTRY VAN DEN VRYE IN BRUGES, AND FRIAR CORNELIS, IN THE PRESENCE OF MR. JAN VAN DAM, ON THE 1OTH OF MAY, A. D. 1569.](/en/stories/mm-disputation-between-herman-vleckwijk-imprisoned-by-the-lords-of-the-country-van-den-vrye-in-bruges-and-friar-cornelis-in/part-14/) · [Book contents](/en/sources/martyrs-mirror/#book-contents) · [Next page: DISPUTATION BETWEEN HERMAN VLECKWIJK, IMPRISONED BY THE LORDS OF THE COUNTRY VAN DEN VRYE IN BRUGES, AND FRIAR CORNELIS, IN THE PRESENCE OF MR. JAN VAN DAM, ON THE 1OTH OF MAY, A. D. 1569.](/en/stories/mm-disputation-between-herman-vleckwijk-imprisoned-by-the-lords-of-the-country-van-den-vrye-in-bruges-and-friar-cornelis-in/part-16/) Herm. Of such things as you here say I never heard our teachers speak once, when they preached the word; but it may sometimes have been asked among us, whether the brethren and sisters of Christ, of whom the holy Scriptures make mention, Matthew 13; Mark 6, etc., were natural children by Joseph or Mary. Fr. Corn. O you accursed Anabaptist, the holy Scriptures calls some apostles, as St. James, St. Simon, St. Judas, the Lord’s brethren, who were merely his cousins, you stupid Anabaptists that you are. Herm. Yet, in the first chapter of Acts it is written (after the eleven apostles are enumerated): “These all continued with one accord in prayer [and supplication,] with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.” Nevertheless, I will not insist upon, or maintain, that Mary the mother of Jesus gave birth yet to other children. Fr. Corn. Bah, but when you Anabaptists are assembled in the Gruthuysbosch, you will maintain it, and other things yet concerning her, which are still much more wicked and abominable; for I know it well, that I do. Herm. We are greatly slandered, even as also you often stand in your pulpit and preach about us all that you please. Fr. Corn. Indeed, do then any Anabaptists sometimes come to hear me preach, eh? Herm. Though we do not hear you preach ourselves, yet we are told, that you stand in your pulpit and preach, that the Calvinists and Anabaptists teach and preach, that Mary the mother of Christ was a filthy whore, for which you are censured by learned men (in letters which they write to you), how you slander us thereby. Fr. Corn. Bah, * * * you miserable Anabaptist * * * for such * * * letters I do not care * * * do you understand this? And do you know nothing else to say? Bah, you do not answer me in regard to having the women in common: bah, you Anabaptists have certainly gone about it very cunningly, that you have the women and maidens in common; for thereby you gain such a great number of adherents for your Anabaptism. Bah, but show me once from the Scriptures, that the women and maidens are to be had in common, as you Anabaptists do in your devil’s supper:—bah, see; let us hear, whether you will be able to show me this. Herm. No; for this I could show to you just as little, as you can show to me from the holy Scriptures, that the women and maidens must be scourged, as you do in your secret disciplining. But you have certainly well practiced the secret disciplining or scourging of the maidens and women, for thereby you gain such a great retinue of devotaries. Fr. Corn. Bah, I would rather * * * than reply to all your talk; but answer my question. * * * Herm. All such barefaced lies, as that we have the women and maidens in common, I do not deem worthy of an answer. Fr. Corn. Ah, bah! Is it a barefaced lie, that you Anabaptists have the women in common? Why then does all the world speak of it, and why then is it printed in so many books, which by us Catholics are written against you, and which I daily read. Fie, you adulterers! fie, you dishonorers of marriage! Herm. All that are of the world are liars; hence you and your Catholics cannot be believed. Fr. Corn. Ah, am I of the world, * * * you accursed, bewitched, damned Anabaptist that you are. Bah, you stupid beast, and do you not see, that I am spiritual? But you evince worldly works by having all the women in common; but I have vowed chastity; do you understand this, you dishonorer of marriage that you are? Herm. We do not dishonor marriage; but if you are spiritual, and have vowed chastity, then it is surprising that you have your delight in this carnal, 763 unclean, secret disciplining, or scourging of the women. Fr. Corn. O you devilish Anabaptist and dishonorer of marriage, I could almost fly into your eyes or into your mouth; bah, what do you understand about my secret disciplining which I employ with my devotaries? Bah, you are filthy, carnal, unchaste, voluptuous rogues, that you thus use the women in common, like dogs. Yes, you damned dishonorers of marriage are nothing more than rotten, stinking dog carrions; for you go about it in this respect like dogs, though you would deny it before us; bah, fie, fie! shame upon you * * * Bah, if I cannot prevail upon you with kindness, I must try whether I can do it with severity; see now. Clerk of the criminal court. Ah, father Cornelis, do be modest and keep your temper. ## Original source [Read this passage on Project Gutenberg](https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/65855/pg65855-images.html#Page_763) [Edition details](https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/65855) [Previous page: DISPUTATION BETWEEN HERMAN VLECKWIJK, IMPRISONED BY THE LORDS OF THE COUNTRY VAN DEN VRYE IN BRUGES, AND FRIAR CORNELIS, IN THE PRESENCE OF MR. JAN VAN DAM, ON THE 1OTH OF MAY, A. D. 1569.](/en/stories/mm-disputation-between-herman-vleckwijk-imprisoned-by-the-lords-of-the-country-van-den-vrye-in-bruges-and-friar-cornelis-in/part-14/) · [Book contents](/en/sources/martyrs-mirror/#book-contents) · [Next page: DISPUTATION BETWEEN HERMAN VLECKWIJK, IMPRISONED BY THE LORDS OF THE COUNTRY VAN DEN VRYE IN BRUGES, AND FRIAR CORNELIS, IN THE PRESENCE OF MR. JAN VAN DAM, ON THE 1OTH OF MAY, A. D. 1569.](/en/stories/mm-disputation-between-herman-vleckwijk-imprisoned-by-the-lords-of-the-country-van-den-vrye-in-bruges-and-friar-cornelis-in/part-16/) --- Page: https://history.truechristian.church/en/stories/mm-disputation-between-herman-vleckwijk-imprisoned-by-the-lords-of-the-country-van-den-vrye-in-bruges-and-friar-cornelis-in/part-15/ [Contribute a correction or addition](https://github.com/trueChristian/history.truechristian.church/issues/new?title=Correction%3A+Disputation+Between+Herman+Vleckwijk%2C+Imprisoned+By+The+Lords+Of+The+Country+Van+Den+Vrye+In+Bruges%2C+And+Friar+Cornelis%2C+In+The+Presence+Of+Mr.+Jan+Van+Dam%2C+On+The+1oth+Of+May%2C+A.+D.+1569.+%C2%B7+Page+15+of+16&body=%23%23+Page+or+topic%0ADisputation+Between+Herman+Vleckwijk%2C+Imprisoned+By+The+Lords+Of+The+Country+Van+Den+Vrye+In+Bruges%2C+And+Friar+Cornelis%2C+In+The+Presence+Of+Mr.+Jan+Van+Dam%2C+On+The+1oth+Of+May%2C+A.+D.+1569.+%C2%B7+Page+15+of+16%0A%0APage%3A+https%3A%2F%2Fhistory.truechristian.church%2Fen%2Fstories%2Fmm-disputation-between-herman-vleckwijk-imprisoned-by-the-lords-of-the-country-van-den-vrye-in-bruges-and-friar-cornelis-in%2Fpart-15%2F%0A%0ARecord%3A+mm-disputation-between-herman-vleckwijk-imprisoned-by-the-lords-of-the-country-van-den-vrye-in-bruges-and-friar-cornelis-in--b00409-o000000%0A%0ADate+currently+shown%3A+1569%0A%0A%23%23+Correction+or+addition%0A%0A%0A%0A%23%23+Sources+and+evidence%0APlease+include+book%2Fpage+references%2C+archive+links%2C+or+first-hand+documentation.%0A%0A%0A%0A%23%23+Image+credit+%28if+applicable%29%0ACreator%2C+source%2C+and+permission+or+public-domain+basis.%0A%0A%0A%0ASubmitted+for+review%3B+this+issue+does+not+publish+changes+automatically.)