# Disputation Between Herman Vleckwijk, Imprisoned By The Lords Of The Country Van Den Vrye In Bruges, And Friar Cornelis, In The Presence Of Mr. Jan Van Dam, On The 1oth Of May, A. D. 1569. · Page 4 of 16 [Previous page: DISPUTATION BETWEEN HERMAN VLECKWIJK, IMPRISONED BY THE LORDS OF THE COUNTRY VAN DEN VRYE IN BRUGES, AND FRIAR CORNELIS, IN THE PRESENCE OF MR. JAN VAN DAM, ON THE 1OTH OF MAY, A. D. 1569.](/en/stories/mm-disputation-between-herman-vleckwijk-imprisoned-by-the-lords-of-the-country-van-den-vrye-in-bruges-and-friar-cornelis-in/part-3/) · [Book contents](/en/sources/martyrs-mirror/#book-contents) · [Next page: DISPUTATION BETWEEN HERMAN VLECKWIJK, IMPRISONED BY THE LORDS OF THE COUNTRY VAN DEN VRYE IN BRUGES, AND FRIAR CORNELIS, IN THE PRESENCE OF MR. JAN VAN DAM, ON THE 1OTH OF MAY, A. D. 1569.](/en/stories/mm-disputation-between-herman-vleckwijk-imprisoned-by-the-lords-of-the-country-van-den-vrye-in-bruges-and-friar-cornelis-in/part-5/) Herm. No; for Christ there speaks of no external baptism, nor does he mention baptism; but he speaks of the regeneration which is performed by the Spirit of God, who is sometimes also called a water in the holy Scriptures. For thus says the Lord by the prophet Isaiah in the forty-fourth chapter (v. 3): “I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my Spirit upon thy seed.” Again, by the prophet Ezekiel, in the thirty-sixth chapter (verses 25,26): “I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your 754 idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new Spirit will I put within you.” Again, in the thirty-ninth chapter (v. 29), the Lord says by Ezekiel: “I have poured out my Spirit upon the house of Israel.” Again, by the prophet Joel, in the second chapter (v. 28): “Then will I pour out my Spirit upon all flesh,” etc. Fr. Corn. Well, all this is done through the sacrament of baptism, when the children are baptized; for then the devil is exorcised by the priest, and they are cleansed from the original sin, inherited from Adam and Eve, and they obtain a new heart and a new spirit; bah, thus does God pour or shed his Spirit upon all flesh; you will not cheat me out of this—you are cornered and remain cornered, see! Herm. I tell you again, that Christ, when he talked with Nicodemus, meant such a regeneration as does not concern external baptism, nor does it children; but it concerns the true believers in Christ, who are begotten according to the will of God, by the word of truth, as James says in the first chapter. Again, Peter, in the first chapter of his first epistle, says: “See that you love one another with a pure heart fervently: being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.” Of similar Scriptures which do not concern little children or external baptism, there are more yet. Fr. Corn. Bah, but if the regeneration of water and of the Spirit does not concern children, they must certainly and unmistakably go to the devil; for you acknowledge yourself, that he who does not believe will be damned. Bah, children do certainly not believe as you also say. And when they besides remain unbaptized, and die thus, they must surely be damned; for by what other way could they be saved, eh? Herm. By the death of Christ, as I have told you. And Christ also says (Matt. 5:18,19), that to such belongs the kingdom of heaven. Fr. Corn. Yes, these are the same arguments with which your hedge-preacher yesterday made my spleen run over. Bah, what does all this disputing and arguing amount to; if you would suffer yourself to be converted, you must be willing to be taught, and brought to the Catholic, Christian faith of our mother, the holy Roman church, and to her baptism and religion. Bah, why will you trust so much in the heresies of that damned arch-heretic, Menno Simons, and so firmly rely upon this bewitched hedge-preacher? Bah, why do you not believe me as well as that Menno Simons? for I am as learned, and have read as much, and certainly much more, as this * * * bishop, Jacob the weaver, and as a Dietrick Phillips, and an Ubbo Frisius, and such devil’s brood, I suppose, eh? Herm. I trust (or build) not upon Menno Simons, nor upon any man; for the prophet Jeremiah says in his seventeenth chapter (v. 5): Thus saith the Lord: Cursed be the man that trusteth in man. Fr. Corn. This is very true; in this you say very well, see; if you begin to talk like this, I feel quite hopeful, that I will convert you with the help of God, from this miserable Anabaptism. So I will first prevail upon you, to renounce the same, and to have your unbaptized children baptized in the Catholic church, by a priest, as a good Christian is in duty bound to do, see. Well, Herman, what think you of this, eh? Herm. I do not think that you are the man that will convert me to your mother, the Roman church, or who will bring me to it, that I shall have my unbaptized children baptized in the papistic church. Fr. Corn. Ah bah, how do you talk in this strain again; a thousand devils (God bless us), what has come over you? It seems, as though he would trust no longer in Menno Simons, nor in any other man; but as soon as I begin with kindness and friendliness to admonish him to renounce Anabaptism, and to have his unbaptized children baptized in our Catholic church, he instantly pipes another tune. Is this not a fine thing? If you will not be converted, and have your unbaptized children baptized in our church, after the Catholic rite, you can be burned alive at the stake, see. ## Original source [Read this passage on Project Gutenberg](https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/65855/pg65855-images.html#Page_754) [Edition details](https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/65855) [Previous page: DISPUTATION BETWEEN HERMAN VLECKWIJK, IMPRISONED BY THE LORDS OF THE COUNTRY VAN DEN VRYE IN BRUGES, AND FRIAR CORNELIS, IN THE PRESENCE OF MR. JAN VAN DAM, ON THE 1OTH OF MAY, A. D. 1569.](/en/stories/mm-disputation-between-herman-vleckwijk-imprisoned-by-the-lords-of-the-country-van-den-vrye-in-bruges-and-friar-cornelis-in/part-3/) · [Book contents](/en/sources/martyrs-mirror/#book-contents) · [Next page: DISPUTATION BETWEEN HERMAN VLECKWIJK, IMPRISONED BY THE LORDS OF THE COUNTRY VAN DEN VRYE IN BRUGES, AND FRIAR CORNELIS, IN THE PRESENCE OF MR. JAN VAN DAM, ON THE 1OTH OF MAY, A. D. 1569.](/en/stories/mm-disputation-between-herman-vleckwijk-imprisoned-by-the-lords-of-the-country-van-den-vrye-in-bruges-and-friar-cornelis-in/part-5/) --- Page: https://history.truechristian.church/en/stories/mm-disputation-between-herman-vleckwijk-imprisoned-by-the-lords-of-the-country-van-den-vrye-in-bruges-and-friar-cornelis-in/part-4/ [Contribute a correction or addition](https://github.com/trueChristian/history.truechristian.church/issues/new?title=Correction%3A+Disputation+Between+Herman+Vleckwijk%2C+Imprisoned+By+The+Lords+Of+The+Country+Van+Den+Vrye+In+Bruges%2C+And+Friar+Cornelis%2C+In+The+Presence+Of+Mr.+Jan+Van+Dam%2C+On+The+1oth+Of+May%2C+A.+D.+1569.+%C2%B7+Page+4+of+16&body=%23%23+Page+or+topic%0ADisputation+Between+Herman+Vleckwijk%2C+Imprisoned+By+The+Lords+Of+The+Country+Van+Den+Vrye+In+Bruges%2C+And+Friar+Cornelis%2C+In+The+Presence+Of+Mr.+Jan+Van+Dam%2C+On+The+1oth+Of+May%2C+A.+D.+1569.+%C2%B7+Page+4+of+16%0A%0APage%3A+https%3A%2F%2Fhistory.truechristian.church%2Fen%2Fstories%2Fmm-disputation-between-herman-vleckwijk-imprisoned-by-the-lords-of-the-country-van-den-vrye-in-bruges-and-friar-cornelis-in%2Fpart-4%2F%0A%0ARecord%3A+mm-disputation-between-herman-vleckwijk-imprisoned-by-the-lords-of-the-country-van-den-vrye-in-bruges-and-friar-cornelis-in--b00077-o000000%0A%0ADate+currently+shown%3A+1569%0A%0A%23%23+Correction+or+addition%0A%0A%0A%0A%23%23+Sources+and+evidence%0APlease+include+book%2Fpage+references%2C+archive+links%2C+or+first-hand+documentation.%0A%0A%0A%0A%23%23+Image+credit+%28if+applicable%29%0ACreator%2C+source%2C+and+permission+or+public-domain+basis.%0A%0A%0A%0ASubmitted+for+review%3B+this+issue+does+not+publish+changes+automatically.)