# Disputation Between Herman Vleckwijk, Imprisoned By The Lords Of The Country Van Den Vrye In Bruges, And Friar Cornelis, In The Presence Of Mr. Jan Van Dam, On The 1oth Of May, A. D. 1569. · Page 6 of 16 [Previous page: DISPUTATION BETWEEN HERMAN VLECKWIJK, IMPRISONED BY THE LORDS OF THE COUNTRY VAN DEN VRYE IN BRUGES, AND FRIAR CORNELIS, IN THE PRESENCE OF MR. JAN VAN DAM, ON THE 1OTH OF MAY, A. D. 1569.](/en/stories/mm-disputation-between-herman-vleckwijk-imprisoned-by-the-lords-of-the-country-van-den-vrye-in-bruges-and-friar-cornelis-in/part-5/) · [Book contents](/en/sources/martyrs-mirror/#book-contents) · [Next page: DISPUTATION BETWEEN HERMAN VLECKWIJK, IMPRISONED BY THE LORDS OF THE COUNTRY VAN DEN VRYE IN BRUGES, AND FRIAR CORNELIS, IN THE PRESENCE OF MR. JAN VAN DAM, ON THE 1OTH OF MAY, A. D. 1569.](/en/stories/mm-disputation-between-herman-vleckwijk-imprisoned-by-the-lords-of-the-country-van-den-vrye-in-bruges-and-friar-cornelis-in/part-7/) Herm. For this reason you papists are justly (according to your saying) called Anabaptists by the Calvinists, because you have rebaptized in your churches their children, that had been baptized once out here in their preaching. Fr. Corn. O you awkward, block-headed Anabaptist, those children were not rightly baptized, and you know yourself well enough how to prove from the nineteenth chapter of the Acts of the Apostles, that St. Paul caused those who had not been rightly baptized under John’s baptism to be rebaptized. Bah, are we Catholics Anabaptists? I suppose so, * * * What shall I say now, does it now become fool’s work altogether with the sacrament of baptism—see wherewith we are now tormented and vexed; would you accursed Anabaptist now begin to call us Catholics Anabaptists? Bah! * * * Herm. I do not call you Anabaptists; for I only say, that the Calvinists call you Anabaptists, because you rebaptize their children, which they had once baptized. Fr. Corn. * * * (He spoke here only vile words of abuse.) Herm. Our baptism is nevertheless administered according to the institution of Christ; for in our church the believing are baptized, but you baptize the unbelieving. Fr. Corn. Bah, the sponsors believe in behalf of the children, until they are old enough to believe themselves, do you understand this? Herm. No; I find nothing said in the Scriptures, about sponsors, nor about one man believing in behalf of another. Fr. Corn. Bah, now you are clearly cornered; for does not St. Luke say in the fifth chapter, that Christ saw the faith of the bearers who let down the man afflicted with the palsy, through the roof with his couch, and that he therefore healed him and forgave his sins, eh? Bah, here for once I have clearly cornered you; get out if you can. Now you have spectacles on your nose, have you not, eh? Herm. No; for from this it is not to be understood, that the man afflicted with the palsy did not himself believe, or was without faith, as are the children which you baptize. Fr. Corn. Bah, the old fathers or teachers of our mother, the holy Roman Catholic church do nevertheless understand, that the bearers of the man afflicted with the palsy signify the sponsors, who hold the children when they are being baptized, and believe in behalf of the children, till these are old enough to believe for themselves; for to this end the sacrament of confirmation is instituted, to put the children, when they are old enough to believe themselves, in remembrance that they were baptized. Bah, I could very well show you this from the ancient fathers, but you Anabaptists will rely most firmly on the holy Scriptures alone, so that you will not once hearken to the ancient fathers or teachers of the holy church. Bah, it seems, as the provincial of the Augustinians tells me, that, when one begins to mention something to you from St. Jerome, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, St. Gregory, or some other ancient fathers, that you people carry on in just such a crazy and ugly manner, as though one began to speak to you of the very devil—is this not a fine thing? Herm. Because we wish to be only Christians, therefore we do not want to hearken to the teachings of the ancient fathers; for they describe popery, as of sponsors, of the sacrament of confirmation, and the whole popery which you follow and observe. Fr. Corn. O you damned, accursed Anabaptist, do you call the sacrament of confirmation popery? 756 Herm. What else is it then? for I have never read in the holy Scriptures of the sacrament of confirmation. Fr. Corn. Bah, and are so dull, awkward and block-headed, that you do not understand it, though you read of it; for confirmation means the imposition of hands, see. Herm. Ah, does it mean this? pardon me, that through my awkwardness and dullness I do not understand such very high and fine Latin. Fr. Corn. Ah, bah, did I say it is Latin, see here. Herm. What language is it then? I certainly would like to know. Fr. Corn. Bah, that I do not know myself; but we Catholics understand it by the word confirmation, the sacrament of confirmation, or the laying on of the hands of the bishop, when our bishops and suffragans confirm grown-up children or adults, as also the apostles did; hence it is that I say, that you sectarians read of many holy sacramental things in the Scriptures, which you do not understand, and therefore you do not know our sacrament of confirmation, that you do not. Herm. If your bishops or suffragans by such confirmation and laying on of hands could give to the grown-up children and adults the Holy Ghost, and that they spake with tongues, and prophesied as did the apostles, and also those upon whom they laid their hands, then I should very well understand and know your confirmation. ## Original source [Read this passage on Project Gutenberg](https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/65855/pg65855-images.html#Page_756) [Edition details](https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/65855) [Previous page: DISPUTATION BETWEEN HERMAN VLECKWIJK, IMPRISONED BY THE LORDS OF THE COUNTRY VAN DEN VRYE IN BRUGES, AND FRIAR CORNELIS, IN THE PRESENCE OF MR. JAN VAN DAM, ON THE 1OTH OF MAY, A. D. 1569.](/en/stories/mm-disputation-between-herman-vleckwijk-imprisoned-by-the-lords-of-the-country-van-den-vrye-in-bruges-and-friar-cornelis-in/part-5/) · [Book contents](/en/sources/martyrs-mirror/#book-contents) · [Next page: DISPUTATION BETWEEN HERMAN VLECKWIJK, IMPRISONED BY THE LORDS OF THE COUNTRY VAN DEN VRYE IN BRUGES, AND FRIAR CORNELIS, IN THE PRESENCE OF MR. JAN VAN DAM, ON THE 1OTH OF MAY, A. D. 1569.](/en/stories/mm-disputation-between-herman-vleckwijk-imprisoned-by-the-lords-of-the-country-van-den-vrye-in-bruges-and-friar-cornelis-in/part-7/) --- Page: https://history.truechristian.church/en/stories/mm-disputation-between-herman-vleckwijk-imprisoned-by-the-lords-of-the-country-van-den-vrye-in-bruges-and-friar-cornelis-in/part-6/ [Contribute a correction or addition](https://github.com/trueChristian/history.truechristian.church/issues/new?title=Correction%3A+Disputation+Between+Herman+Vleckwijk%2C+Imprisoned+By+The+Lords+Of+The+Country+Van+Den+Vrye+In+Bruges%2C+And+Friar+Cornelis%2C+In+The+Presence+Of+Mr.+Jan+Van+Dam%2C+On+The+1oth+Of+May%2C+A.+D.+1569.+%C2%B7+Page+6+of+16&body=%23%23+Page+or+topic%0ADisputation+Between+Herman+Vleckwijk%2C+Imprisoned+By+The+Lords+Of+The+Country+Van+Den+Vrye+In+Bruges%2C+And+Friar+Cornelis%2C+In+The+Presence+Of+Mr.+Jan+Van+Dam%2C+On+The+1oth+Of+May%2C+A.+D.+1569.+%C2%B7+Page+6+of+16%0A%0APage%3A+https%3A%2F%2Fhistory.truechristian.church%2Fen%2Fstories%2Fmm-disputation-between-herman-vleckwijk-imprisoned-by-the-lords-of-the-country-van-den-vrye-in-bruges-and-friar-cornelis-in%2Fpart-6%2F%0A%0ARecord%3A+mm-disputation-between-herman-vleckwijk-imprisoned-by-the-lords-of-the-country-van-den-vrye-in-bruges-and-friar-cornelis-in--b00133-o000000%0A%0ADate+currently+shown%3A+1569%0A%0A%23%23+Correction+or+addition%0A%0A%0A%0A%23%23+Sources+and+evidence%0APlease+include+book%2Fpage+references%2C+archive+links%2C+or+first-hand+documentation.%0A%0A%0A%0A%23%23+Image+credit+%28if+applicable%29%0ACreator%2C+source%2C+and+permission+or+public-domain+basis.%0A%0A%0A%0ASubmitted+for+review%3B+this+issue+does+not+publish+changes+automatically.)