# Disputation Between Jacob De Keersgieter And Mr. Friar Cornelis, A Franciscan Monk; In The Presence Of Mr. Jan Van Damme, Recorder, And Mr. Michiel Houwaert, Clerk Of The Criminal Court, On The 9th Of May, A. D. 1569.306 · Page 1 of 13 [Previous page: JACOB DE ROORE, OR THE CHANDLER, AND HERMAN VAN VLECKWICJK, BOTH BURNED ALIVE AT THE STAKE, AT BRUGES, IN FLANDERS, FOR THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST, THE 10TH OF JUNE, A. D. 1569.](/en/stories/mm-jacob-de-roore-or-the-chandler-and-herman-van-vleckwicjk-both-burned-alive-at-the-stake-at-bruges-in-flanders-for-the-te/) · [Book contents](/en/sources/martyrs-mirror/#book-contents) · [Next page: DISPUTATION BETWEEN JACOB DE KEERSGIETER AND MR. FRIAR CORNELIS, A FRANCISCAN MONK; IN THE PRESENCE OF MR. JAN VAN DAMME, RECORDER, AND MR. MICHIEL HOUWAERT, CLERK OF THE CRIMINAL COURT, ON THE 9TH OF MAY, A. D. 1569.306](/en/stories/mm-disputation-between-jacob-de-keersgieter-and-mr-friar-cornelis-a-franciscan-monk-in-the-presence-of-mr-jan-van-damme-rec/part-2/) Friar Cornelis. Well, I’ve come here to see whether I can convert you (Jacob, I believe, is your name) from your false and evil belief, in which you are erring, and whether I cannot bring you back to the Catholic faith of our mother, the holy Roman church, from which you have apostatized to this damnable Anabaptism. What do you say to this, eh? Jacob. With your permission, as regards that I have an evil, false belief, this I deny; but that through the grace of God I have apostatized from your Babylonian mother, the Roman church, to the members, or the true church, of Christ this I confess; and thank God for it, who has said: “Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.” Rev. 18:4; Is. 52:11. Fr. Corn. Is it true? And do you call our mother the holy Roman church, the whore of Babylon? And do you call your hellish, devilish sect of Anabaptists the members, or the true church of Christ? Eh! hear this fine fellow once. Who the devil has taught you this! your accursed Menno Symons, I suppose, * * * Jac. With your permission, you talk very wickedly. It was not necessary that Menno Symons should have taught us as something new, that the Babylonian whore signifies your mother, the Roman church, since John teaches us enough concerning this in his Apocalypse, or Revelation, in the 14th, 16th, 17th, and 18th chapters. Fr. Corn. Ah bah! what do you understand about St. John’s Apocalypse? at what university did you study? At the loom, I suppose; for I understand that you were nothing but a poor weaver and chandler, before you went around preaching and rebaptizing out here in the Gruthuysbosch. I have attended the university at Louvain, and studied divinity so long, and yet I do not understand anything at all about St. John’s Apocalypse; this is a fact. Jac. Therefore Christ thanked his heavenly Father, that he had revealed and made it known to babes, and hid it from the wise of this world, as is written, Matt. 11:25. Fr. Corn. Exactly; God has revealed it to the weavers at the loom, to the cobblers on their bench, and to bellows-menders, lantern-tinkers, scissors-grinders, broom-makers, thatchers, and all sorts of riff-raff, and poor, filthy, and lousy beggars. And to us ecclesiastics who have studied from our youth, night and day, he has concealed it. Just see how we are tormented. You Anabaptists are certainly fine fellows to understand the holy Scriptures; for before you are rebaptized, you can’t tell A from B, but as soon as you are baptized, you can read and write. If the devil and his mother have not a hand in this, I do not understand any thing about you people. Jac. I can well hear that you do not understand our way of doing; for you ascribe to Satan the grace which God grants our simple converts, when we with all diligence teach them to read. Fr. Corn. See here once; these heretics presume to have the grace of God, and regard our mother, the holy Catholic Roman church as the whore of Babylon—is this not a fine grace of God? Ah, bah! you have the grace of the very devil of hell. What shall I say in regard to this? If you regard our mother, the holy Catholic Roman church as the whore of Babylon, I can well imagine what you consider our holy father the Pope, the vicar of God. Let us hear once. Jac. I consider the Pope the vicar of God; for he occupies the place of God, as Paul writes concerning him, in the second chapter of his second epistle to the Thessalonians: “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?” Fr. Corn. Hush, hush, you have preached enough; here you are not in the Gruthuysbosch, nor do I sit down to hear you preach. Bah! you accursed Anabaptist, would you apply the prophecy of St. Paul to our holy father the Pope? * * * Hear this accursed heretic once; how he understands St. Paul. Bah! St. Paul thereby means the antichrist; that he does. ## Original source [Read this passage on Project Gutenberg](https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/65855/pg65855-images.html#FNanchor_306) [Edition details](https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/65855) [Previous page: JACOB DE ROORE, OR THE CHANDLER, AND HERMAN VAN VLECKWICJK, BOTH BURNED ALIVE AT THE STAKE, AT BRUGES, IN FLANDERS, FOR THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST, THE 10TH OF JUNE, A. D. 1569.](/en/stories/mm-jacob-de-roore-or-the-chandler-and-herman-van-vleckwicjk-both-burned-alive-at-the-stake-at-bruges-in-flanders-for-the-te/) · [Book contents](/en/sources/martyrs-mirror/#book-contents) · [Next page: DISPUTATION BETWEEN JACOB DE KEERSGIETER AND MR. FRIAR CORNELIS, A FRANCISCAN MONK; IN THE PRESENCE OF MR. JAN VAN DAMME, RECORDER, AND MR. MICHIEL HOUWAERT, CLERK OF THE CRIMINAL COURT, ON THE 9TH OF MAY, A. D. 1569.306](/en/stories/mm-disputation-between-jacob-de-keersgieter-and-mr-friar-cornelis-a-franciscan-monk-in-the-presence-of-mr-jan-van-damme-rec/part-2/) --- Page: https://history.truechristian.church/en/stories/mm-disputation-between-jacob-de-keersgieter-and-mr-friar-cornelis-a-franciscan-monk-in-the-presence-of-mr-jan-van-damme-rec/ [Contribute a correction or addition](https://github.com/trueChristian/history.truechristian.church/issues/new?title=Correction%3A+Disputation+Between+Jacob+De+Keersgieter+And+Mr.+Friar+Cornelis%2C+A+Franciscan+Monk%3B+In+The+Presence+Of+Mr.+Jan+Van+Damme%2C+Recorder%2C+And+Mr.+Michiel+Houwaert%2C+Clerk+Of+The+Criminal+Court%2C+On+The+9th+Of+May%2C+A.+D.+1569.306+%C2%B7+Page+1+of+13&body=%23%23+Page+or+topic%0ADisputation+Between+Jacob+De+Keersgieter+And+Mr.+Friar+Cornelis%2C+A+Franciscan+Monk%3B+In+The+Presence+Of+Mr.+Jan+Van+Damme%2C+Recorder%2C+And+Mr.+Michiel+Houwaert%2C+Clerk+Of+The+Criminal+Court%2C+On+The+9th+Of+May%2C+A.+D.+1569.306+%C2%B7+Page+1+of+13%0A%0APage%3A+https%3A%2F%2Fhistory.truechristian.church%2Fen%2Fstories%2Fmm-disputation-between-jacob-de-keersgieter-and-mr-friar-cornelis-a-franciscan-monk-in-the-presence-of-mr-jan-van-damme-rec%2F%0A%0ARecord%3A+mm-disputation-between-jacob-de-keersgieter-and-mr-friar-cornelis-a-franciscan-monk-in-the-presence-of-mr-jan-van-damme-rec%0A%0ADate+currently+shown%3A+1569%0A%0A%23%23+Correction+or+addition%0A%0A%0A%0A%23%23+Sources+and+evidence%0APlease+include+book%2Fpage+references%2C+archive+links%2C+or+first-hand+documentation.%0A%0A%0A%0A%23%23+Image+credit+%28if+applicable%29%0ACreator%2C+source%2C+and+permission+or+public-domain+basis.%0A%0A%0A%0ASubmitted+for+review%3B+this+issue+does+not+publish+changes+automatically.)