# Disputation Between Jacob De Keersgieter And Mr. Friar Cornelis, A Franciscan Monk; In The Presence Of Mr. Jan Van Damme, Recorder, And Mr. Michiel Houwaert, Clerk Of The Criminal Court, On The 9th Of May, A. D. 1569.306 · Page 6 of 13 [Previous page: DISPUTATION BETWEEN JACOB DE KEERSGIETER AND MR. FRIAR CORNELIS, A FRANCISCAN MONK; IN THE PRESENCE OF MR. JAN VAN DAMME, RECORDER, AND MR. MICHIEL HOUWAERT, CLERK OF THE CRIMINAL COURT, ON THE 9TH OF MAY, A. D. 1569.306](/en/stories/mm-disputation-between-jacob-de-keersgieter-and-mr-friar-cornelis-a-franciscan-monk-in-the-presence-of-mr-jan-van-damme-rec/part-5/) · [Book contents](/en/sources/martyrs-mirror/#book-contents) · [Next page: DISPUTATION BETWEEN JACOB DE KEERSGIETER AND MR. FRIAR CORNELIS, A FRANCISCAN MONK; IN THE PRESENCE OF MR. JAN VAN DAMME, RECORDER, AND MR. MICHIEL HOUWAERT, CLERK OF THE CRIMINAL COURT, ON THE 9TH OF MAY, A. D. 1569.306](/en/stories/mm-disputation-between-jacob-de-keersgieter-and-mr-friar-cornelis-a-franciscan-monk-in-the-presence-of-mr-jan-van-damme-rec/part-7/) Fr. Corn. Ah bah! would you deny it, what ails you? Jac. If it were true, I would not deny it; but this can never be said with truth of us. Fr. Corn. Bah, bah! this is the most aggravating monstrosity yet. I thought you would go and show or prove to me from the Holy Scriptures, that 746 the women may be had in common; and do you now want to deny it, eh! Jac. But should I not deny those things that are lies? Fr. Corn. This miserable Anabaptist would give me the lie. But do you think you can swindle me out of a matter which I so certainly know to be true? Bah, why will you deny it, seeing you have already so flatly denied the five sacraments, which is a hundred thousand times worse and more damnable, than to make common all the women and maidens of the whole world, that it is. Jac. You are very wrong in accusing us with it; for it is something of which we are innocent. Fr. Corn. Ah bah, now it is getting to be downright idiocy with this denying. I am mad and indignant enough to jump right out of my skin, that this accursed Anabaptist here would deny a matter so public, and known to all the world. Ah bah, I will stake my neck, that I have preached more than a hundred times, that you Anabaptists have the women and maidens in common, and that you also sever the marriage tie, giving to one man, when he is tired of his wife, another man’s wife; and, in like manner, to one woman, when she is tired of her husband, another woman’s husband. Don’t I know these things, eh? Jac. I have heard it said sometimes, that a certain Friar Cornelis here, often preaches such things concerning us: is it you, permit me to ask? Fr. Corn. Yes, I am Friar Cornelis, who preaches such things concerning you. Just take a good look at me. I ought to know that I am the man; and I will also clearly show to you, that I preach it with truth; for were they not Anabaptists who at Amsterdam, and elsewhere in Holland, ran stark naked through the streets, men and women, young maidens and boys, and said to one another: My spirit desires your flesh; eh? Jac. Those were not of our brethren; for formerly there were such false brethren, as David Joris and Hendrick Nicolaus, who taught these things in secret, and said that no one might have anything as his own, and that therefore, no one might marry a wife for himself, but that women ought to be had in common. Others also wanted to prove from the Scriptures, that women that are unmannered or disorderly might be abandoned. Fr. Corn. * * * Ah; bah, why would you deny, that you Anabaptists have the women in common. They certainly were Anabaptists, who, at Amsterdam, forcibly took possession of the city hall, and who overpowered and took the city of Munster, and afterwards were besieged, bombarded, stormed, defeated, captured, and put to death, with their king, Jan Beukelss, a tailor of Leyden. They certainly had the women in common, yea, not only the women, but also the property; yea, they robbed churches and convents, in Holland, Friesland, and Gelderland. Why would you then say, that these also were not of your brethren? You must be an idiot, I think. Jac. These all belonged to the same (strange) false brethren; for as they taught, that women might not be held as own, so they also taught that property might not be owned individually, but was to be held in common, and that the property of the papists belonged to the Christians, and that they might seize it wherever they could, in order thereby to exterminate the ungodly with the external sword, and to abolish all government, in order thus to set up a new kingdom of Christ in this world. And through these this unchristian report has unjustly come upon us. Fr. Corn. Is it possible? It remains to be seen yet, whether this evil report has unjustly come upon you. If you Anabaptists also had a head, like the Calvinists, you would persecute, trouble, torment, and martyrize us Catholics just as they do; this I swear to you. Well, enough of this; but that you would deny, that you Anabaptists have the women in common, this I cannot take in, or swallow. You may deny, twist, sneak, dive, and cover up as much as you will, but you shall not swindle me out of it, that you shall not. Jac. We are not the only ones that have to bear this from you; for you also often preach, I understand, that the Calvinists have the women in common. ## Original source [Read this passage on Project Gutenberg](https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/65855/pg65855-images.html#Page_746) [Edition details](https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/65855) [Previous page: DISPUTATION BETWEEN JACOB DE KEERSGIETER AND MR. FRIAR CORNELIS, A FRANCISCAN MONK; IN THE PRESENCE OF MR. JAN VAN DAMME, RECORDER, AND MR. MICHIEL HOUWAERT, CLERK OF THE CRIMINAL COURT, ON THE 9TH OF MAY, A. D. 1569.306](/en/stories/mm-disputation-between-jacob-de-keersgieter-and-mr-friar-cornelis-a-franciscan-monk-in-the-presence-of-mr-jan-van-damme-rec/part-5/) · [Book contents](/en/sources/martyrs-mirror/#book-contents) · [Next page: DISPUTATION BETWEEN JACOB DE KEERSGIETER AND MR. FRIAR CORNELIS, A FRANCISCAN MONK; IN THE PRESENCE OF MR. JAN VAN DAMME, RECORDER, AND MR. MICHIEL HOUWAERT, CLERK OF THE CRIMINAL COURT, ON THE 9TH OF MAY, A. D. 1569.306](/en/stories/mm-disputation-between-jacob-de-keersgieter-and-mr-friar-cornelis-a-franciscan-monk-in-the-presence-of-mr-jan-van-damme-rec/part-7/) --- Page: https://history.truechristian.church/en/stories/mm-disputation-between-jacob-de-keersgieter-and-mr-friar-cornelis-a-franciscan-monk-in-the-presence-of-mr-jan-van-damme-rec/part-6/ [Contribute a correction or addition](https://github.com/trueChristian/history.truechristian.church/issues/new?title=Correction%3A+Disputation+Between+Jacob+De+Keersgieter+And+Mr.+Friar+Cornelis%2C+A+Franciscan+Monk%3B+In+The+Presence+Of+Mr.+Jan+Van+Damme%2C+Recorder%2C+And+Mr.+Michiel+Houwaert%2C+Clerk+Of+The+Criminal+Court%2C+On+The+9th+Of+May%2C+A.+D.+1569.306+%C2%B7+Page+6+of+13&body=%23%23+Page+or+topic%0ADisputation+Between+Jacob+De+Keersgieter+And+Mr.+Friar+Cornelis%2C+A+Franciscan+Monk%3B+In+The+Presence+Of+Mr.+Jan+Van+Damme%2C+Recorder%2C+And+Mr.+Michiel+Houwaert%2C+Clerk+Of+The+Criminal+Court%2C+On+The+9th+Of+May%2C+A.+D.+1569.306+%C2%B7+Page+6+of+13%0A%0APage%3A+https%3A%2F%2Fhistory.truechristian.church%2Fen%2Fstories%2Fmm-disputation-between-jacob-de-keersgieter-and-mr-friar-cornelis-a-franciscan-monk-in-the-presence-of-mr-jan-van-damme-rec%2Fpart-6%2F%0A%0ARecord%3A+mm-disputation-between-jacob-de-keersgieter-and-mr-friar-cornelis-a-franciscan-monk-in-the-presence-of-mr-jan-van-damme-rec--b00123-o000000%0A%0ADate+currently+shown%3A+1569%0A%0A%23%23+Correction+or+addition%0A%0A%0A%0A%23%23+Sources+and+evidence%0APlease+include+book%2Fpage+references%2C+archive+links%2C+or+first-hand+documentation.%0A%0A%0A%0A%23%23+Image+credit+%28if+applicable%29%0ACreator%2C+source%2C+and+permission+or+public-domain+basis.%0A%0A%0A%0ASubmitted+for+review%3B+this+issue+does+not+publish+changes+automatically.)