# Eleven Brethren And A Sister, At Antwerp; Harman Timmerman, Jan Van Hasebroeck, Pieter Verlonge, Gerrit Van Mandel, Jan Van Mandel, Jan De Schaper, Jan Wiljoot, Jan Van Doornick, Willem Van Poperinge, Maeyken His Wife, Jan Koopman, Hans His Servant; A. D. 1569. · Page 3 of 6 [Previous page: ELEVEN BRETHREN AND A SISTER, AT ANTWERP; HARMAN TIMMERMAN, JAN VAN HASEBROECK, PIETER VERLONGE, GERRIT VAN MANDEL, JAN VAN MANDEL, JAN DE SCHAPER, JAN WILJOOT, JAN VAN DOORNICK, WILLEM VAN POPERINGE, MAEYKEN HIS WIFE, JAN KOOPMAN, HANS HIS SERVANT; A. D. 1569.](/en/stories/mm-eleven-brethren-and-a-sister-at-antwerp-harman-timmerman-jan-van-hasebroeck-pieter-verlonge-gerrit-van-mandel-jan-van-ma/part-2/) · [Book contents](/en/sources/martyrs-mirror/#book-contents) · [Next page: ELEVEN BRETHREN AND A SISTER, AT ANTWERP; HARMAN TIMMERMAN, JAN VAN HASEBROECK, PIETER VERLONGE, GERRIT VAN MANDEL, JAN VAN MANDEL, JAN DE SCHAPER, JAN WILJOOT, JAN VAN DOORNICK, WILLEM VAN POPERINGE, MAEYKEN HIS WIFE, JAN KOOPMAN, HANS HIS SERVANT; A. D. 1569.](/en/stories/mm-eleven-brethren-and-a-sister-at-antwerp-harman-timmerman-jan-van-hasebroeck-pieter-verlonge-gerrit-van-mandel-jan-van-ma/part-4/) You further say that God is invisible and lives forever, but that Christ was seen, and that he died, and that the child was without knowledge, and that it grew up in wisdom; concerning which you shall hear our views afterwards from the confession of our faith, which we prove from the Scriptures, which latter we must believe. Furthermore, you say that God knows the times, and that the Son does not know them. Matt. 24:36; Mark 13:32. Our answer is, that Christ speaks this according to his humiliation; for there are other passages which testify concerning him, that he knows all things; as where Peter said: “Lord, thou knowest all things;” and Christ did not contradict him, saying: “No, Peter, I do not know the last day.” He did not even reply to it. Again, when the disciples said to him: “Now are we sure that thou knowest all things.” John 16:30. You further say that God knows the hearts of all the children of men. Ps. 7:9; Jeremiah 11:20; 17:10; 12:3. We say that Christ also knows them; for he knew what was in man, and needed not that any should testify of man. 2 Tim. 4:8; Revelation 2:23; John 2:25. And Christ said: I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. John 9:42. And in John 6:61, we read that Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it. But that you write concerning the revelation of John, that God gave him the same, this does not imply that he [Christ] does not know anything. You further say that God is Almighty, and does all things without the assistance of any one. Answer: Above we have proven that Christ Jesus and the Holy Ghost are comprehended in the word God, or you must prove that the Father does some things without the Son or the Holy Ghost, contrary to the words of Christ where he says: What things soever the Father doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. And: My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. And: As the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them, even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. John 5:19; 17:21. And if we are to honor the Son as we honor the Father, as the Father requires, we must certainly confess him God, for the Father is honored as God, and if we now deny the Son, we have neither the Father, nor the Son, and we are also the spirit of antichrist. 1 John 2:22. And as God did the miracles by him, so he, again, did them by the Father. And he said to two blind men: Believe ye that I am able to do this to you? And they believed it and were helped. Matthew 9:28. This I state, that you may know that he frequently ascribes to himself the works which he does, and sometimes to his Father; in order that you may know that they are one God, who worketh all things. You say that God requires the Holy Spirit, which is true. Now you must observe that a certain thing is sometimes ascribed to God the Father, and sometimes to the Son; for we read, John 3:16, that God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son. Rom. 5:8; 1 John 4:9. And John 10:17, we read that Christ says, that he lays down his life; no man takes it from him; but he lays it down of himself. Again, that he gives his flesh for the life of the world. John 6:51. And that he also imparts the Holy Ghost, and also sent him to his disciples. John 20:22; 16:7,13; 15:26; Luke 24:49. You further quote 1 Cor. 15:28. Our answer is, as above: That sometimes a work is ascribed to the Father and sometimes to the Son; that all men might know that they are one. For we read that God the Father set Jesus Christ at his own right hand in the heavenly places. Eph. 1:20. And we also read, that the Lord sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high, Heb. 1:3. Therefore my friend, you may well take heed before you proceed in such a weighty matter, and first well prove with the word of Christ and his apostles, that you do not run away with a word, without first proving whether it agrees with all the words of God. Farewell, and read with the understanding. ## Original source [Read this passage on Project Gutenberg](https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/65855/pg65855-images.html#Page_736) [Edition details](https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/65855) [Previous page: ELEVEN BRETHREN AND A SISTER, AT ANTWERP; HARMAN TIMMERMAN, JAN VAN HASEBROECK, PIETER VERLONGE, GERRIT VAN MANDEL, JAN VAN MANDEL, JAN DE SCHAPER, JAN WILJOOT, JAN VAN DOORNICK, WILLEM VAN POPERINGE, MAEYKEN HIS WIFE, JAN KOOPMAN, HANS HIS SERVANT; A. D. 1569.](/en/stories/mm-eleven-brethren-and-a-sister-at-antwerp-harman-timmerman-jan-van-hasebroeck-pieter-verlonge-gerrit-van-mandel-jan-van-ma/part-2/) · [Book contents](/en/sources/martyrs-mirror/#book-contents) · [Next page: ELEVEN BRETHREN AND A SISTER, AT ANTWERP; HARMAN TIMMERMAN, JAN VAN HASEBROECK, PIETER VERLONGE, GERRIT VAN MANDEL, JAN VAN MANDEL, JAN DE SCHAPER, JAN WILJOOT, JAN VAN DOORNICK, WILLEM VAN POPERINGE, MAEYKEN HIS WIFE, JAN KOOPMAN, HANS HIS SERVANT; A. D. 1569.](/en/stories/mm-eleven-brethren-and-a-sister-at-antwerp-harman-timmerman-jan-van-hasebroeck-pieter-verlonge-gerrit-van-mandel-jan-van-ma/part-4/) --- Page: https://history.truechristian.church/en/stories/mm-eleven-brethren-and-a-sister-at-antwerp-harman-timmerman-jan-van-hasebroeck-pieter-verlonge-gerrit-van-mandel-jan-van-ma/part-3/ [Contribute a correction or addition](https://github.com/trueChristian/history.truechristian.church/issues/new?title=Correction%3A+Eleven+Brethren+And+A+Sister%2C+At+Antwerp%3B+Harman+Timmerman%2C+Jan+Van+Hasebroeck%2C+Pieter+Verlonge%2C+Gerrit+Van+Mandel%2C+Jan+Van+Mandel%2C+Jan+De+Schaper%2C+Jan+Wiljoot%2C+Jan+Van+Doornick%2C+Willem+Van+Poperinge%2C+Maeyken+His+Wife%2C+Jan+Koopman%2C+Hans+His+Servant%3B+A.+D.+1569.+%C2%B7+Page+3+of+6&body=%23%23+Page+or+topic%0AEleven+Brethren+And+A+Sister%2C+At+Antwerp%3B+Harman+Timmerman%2C+Jan+Van+Hasebroeck%2C+Pieter+Verlonge%2C+Gerrit+Van+Mandel%2C+Jan+Van+Mandel%2C+Jan+De+Schaper%2C+Jan+Wiljoot%2C+Jan+Van+Doornick%2C+Willem+Van+Poperinge%2C+Maeyken+His+Wife%2C+Jan+Koopman%2C+Hans+His+Servant%3B+A.+D.+1569.+%C2%B7+Page+3+of+6%0A%0APage%3A+https%3A%2F%2Fhistory.truechristian.church%2Fen%2Fstories%2Fmm-eleven-brethren-and-a-sister-at-antwerp-harman-timmerman-jan-van-hasebroeck-pieter-verlonge-gerrit-van-mandel-jan-van-ma%2Fpart-3%2F%0A%0ARecord%3A+mm-eleven-brethren-and-a-sister-at-antwerp-harman-timmerman-jan-van-hasebroeck-pieter-verlonge-gerrit-van-mandel-jan-van-ma--b00019-o000000%0A%0ADate+currently+shown%3A+1569%0A%0A%23%23+Correction+or+addition%0A%0A%0A%0A%23%23+Sources+and+evidence%0APlease+include+book%2Fpage+references%2C+archive+links%2C+or+first-hand+documentation.%0A%0A%0A%0A%23%23+Image+credit+%28if+applicable%29%0ACreator%2C+source%2C+and+permission+or+public-domain+basis.%0A%0A%0A%0ASubmitted+for+review%3B+this+issue+does+not+publish+changes+automatically.)