# Another Letter Of Joost Verkindert, Written To His Dear Wife, And, Generally, To All Brethren And Sisters In The Lord; In Which An Account Is Given Of Several Disputations Held With The Bishop’S Commissary Concerning The Faith.

16th century (source section) · Historical source

Source: Martyrs’ Mirror. Original heading: ANOTHER LETTER OF JOOST VERKINDERT, WRITTEN TO HIS DEAR WIFE, AND, GENERALLY, TO ALL BRETHREN AND SISTERS IN THE LORD; IN WHICH AN ACCOUNT IS GIVEN OF SEVERAL DISPUTATIONS HELD WITH THE BISHOP’S COMMISSARY CONCERNING THE FAITH.

Century of containing source section; exact event date not assigned

Grace, joy and peace from God the heavenly Father,
and our Lord Jesus Christ, who loved us, and
washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath
shined in our hearts, and translated us into the
kingdom of his dear Son; together with the Comforter,
the Holy Ghost, who proceeds from both
the Father and the Son, to comfort all them that
are in tribulation and sorrow. To him be praise,
honor, glory, dominion, power, and majesty, forever
and ever. Amen.

This I wish you as a friendly greeting, my dear
and beloved wife and sister in the Lord, together
with all fellow believers of our most holy faith; informing
you, that our mind is still fixed, to adhere
to the eternal truth, and to the faith once delivered
to the saints, trusting thereby to obtain eternal life,
not through our own merits, but through pure
grace, and also because of the hope, that Christ with
his faithful mouth says: Whosoever loseth his life
for my sake and the Gospel’s, the same shall find it
hereafter in life eternal. Matt. 10:39; Luke 17:33;
John 12:25.

O my dear brethren and sisters, let every one follow
the advice of Christ, and search the Holy
Scriptures; for they are they which testify of him.
John 5:39. And Paul says: Whatsoever things
were written aforetime were written for our learning.
Rom. 15:4. And let us not fear men, which must
perish like grass; but let us fear him which, after he
hath killed, hath power also to cast soul and body
into hell; fear him. Is. 51:12; Luke 12:5. For
heaven and earth shall pass away, but his word shall
abide forever. Matt. 5:18.

Know further, that on the 17th of August we were
both called down to speak with the bishop’s commissary;
and having come down we courteously
greeted him, and bade him good evening. He did
likewise, asking: “Joos, to what conclusion have
you come?” I replied: “I pray the Lord night and
day for my greatest salvation, and the more I pray,
the greater my assurance becomes that I have the
truth.” He said, that it was true I was seeking my
salvation, but ignorantly, like the Jews, who wanted
to be justified through the law. And, with folded
hands, he made a long speech and highly extolled
and thanked the name of God, and of Jesus Christ,
that he had done all things so well, and had given
the holy church so many good ordinances, and
promised to abide with it even unto the end of the
world. Then Lauwerens asked, where his church
suffered persecution. He answered: “That was seen
three years ago, when some of our people were
killed by the Protestants.” I said: “My lord, if the
authorities did not protect your church with the
sword, it would soon come to nought, for it has no
strength.” He said, that it was of God, and had
continued from the time of the apostles to Timothy
and Titus, and thence to all the holy teachers even
to the present day. I asked, whether the apostles
had so observed or instituted them [the ordinances]
as they were now used by them. “Yes,” said
he, “as regards the faith.” I said, that they were
far from the right way; for I had previously shown
him, that their ordinances were but commandments
of men; and Christ says: “Every plant which my
heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted
up. [Let them alone:] they be blind leaders of the
blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall
fall into the ditch.” Matt. 15:13,14. I showed him,
that Israel was forbidden to follow their own opinions,
but were to observe only what the Lord had
commanded; and I told him how severely Saul was
punished by the Lord, because he, following his
own mind, had spared the king of the Amalekites,
and the best of the oxen and sheep. He answered,
that Saul did this contrary to the command of the
Lord, but they did not; for it was all instituted on
account of certain causes that had arisen in the
church: even as in the time of the apostles; when
there were some that contended, a council was held.
Also, that Paul commanded Titus, to set in order
the things which he had left uncompleted (Tit. 1:5);
and other words. Thereupon I told him of the pious
king Josiah: that he did not regard the ancient customs
and ceremonies of his forefathers, but that he
destroyed all that had been instituted contrary to
the law, and commanded the law to be observed
aright. 2 Kings 23. To this he had but little to say.
I also asked him, saying: “My lord, I am much
surprised, that you do not banish us, as they do
in Germany the Eastern country,320 and England.”
He said: “Whither would you go? for whithersoever
you go there you corrupt and seduce the people.”
819
I told him, that faith was the gift of God, and also,
that not all men had it. Eph. 2:8. He said: “You
did have the faith, but now you have adopted another”;
and he added a simile: that we were like
soldiers that had run away from their lord without
a passport, who were nowhere free. I asked him,
whether infant baptism was a taking in into his
church. He said: “Yes.” I asked again, why they
did not go to Turkey to take in children. He answered:
“Nay; this does not belong to them, for
they are a rejected people.” I further asked him, by
what scriptures they might put us to death; which
he assayed to show with the law; but I said, that
we were under the law of grace, namely, under the
Gospel; and Christ says of the tares, that they
should be suffered to grow up with the wheat until
the harvest. Matt. 13:30. “He said we have
other scriptures, that the magistracy has not received
the sword in vain” (Rom. 13:4). I showed
him, that the sword was given to the magistracy for
the punishment of the evil, and the protection of the
good; moreover [I said] I have not been disobedient
to the magistracy, but have obeyed it in all according
to the power which it has received from
God. And when I had asked him, whether he had
no other scriptures, he said; “Peter slew Ananias
and Sapphira.” I said: “With what, and why?”
He replied: “Because they lied.” “That is true,”
I said; “for they lied to the Holy Ghost, and had
kept back and said nothing about part of the price
of the land which they had sold.” He said: “Nevertheless,
he slew them with the sword of his
mouth.” And though I told him it was done for
evil doing, and without the sword, it was of no
avail, he would therewith prove his point that we
might be put to death, and also added the words of
Paul: “I would they were even cut off which trouble
you.” Gal. 5:12. I replied, that Paul did not mean
such cutting off as they were now doing. He said:
“Paul then did not yet have the magistracy on his
side.”

We then also spoke of infant baptism, which he
would prove to be a command of Christ, namely,
because Christ says: “Except a man be born of
water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the
kingdom of God.” John 3:5. In this passage he
would also include the children, namely, in the
expression, a man.321 I then made him read that
chapter, in a Bible which was there, namely: “There
was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a
ruler of the Jews: the same came to Jesus by night,
and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art
a teacher come from God: for no man can do these
miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I
say unto thee, Except a man born from above, he
cannot see the kingdom of God.” I then asked
him, whether he knew and understood what it was
to be born from above; and also said, that a child
could not be born from above; but that Christ
thereby meant persons that had understanding.
“Yes,” said he, “and infants too,” and fell back
on his old proposition, and held fast to it, namely:

“Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,”
etc. And he also quoted Paul and Titus, that Christ
cleansed his church with the washing of water by
the word. Eph. 5:26. Thereupon I answered that
Paul thereby did not mean children. He would
also establish it with John’s epistle, namely, that
there are three witnesses in heaven: the Father, the
Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are
one; and three witnesses on earth: the spirit, the
water, and the blood: and these three are one
(1 John 5:7,8); to which he added, that infants
must be cleansed from original sin through baptism.
I told him, that infants are cleansed from their
original sin through the blood of our Lord Jesus
Christ. For Paul says: Even as by the unrighteousness
of one man death entered into the world,
so grace much more abounded by Christ Jesus; and
as in Adam all die, even so in Christ are all made
alive again. Rom. 5:17; 1 Cor. 15:22. Also, that
the prophet says, that the child shall not bear the
iniquity of its father. Ezek. 18:20. He said: It is
true, this grace has come upon all men: but that children
must nevertheless be baptized, if they were to
be saved; and he made a great many words which
had a fair semblance. Then I asked him, whether
infants were saved by the water. He replied: “When
they are baptized with water, they receive the Holy
Ghost,” and are then redeemed by the blood of
Christ; which he established with the three witnesses
on earth, namely, the spirit, the water, and
the blood; and upon this he strenuously insisted.
I told him, that he rejected and disesteemed with
his infant baptism the blood of Christ, with which
he was not well satisfied. I then asked him, whether
baptism was not a burial of sin. He replied: “Yes.”
I said, again, that infants had not committed sin,
and that they were simple and innocent. But it was
all of no avail; children must be baptized, for this
had been practiced from the time of the apostles.
I asked him again, whether the apostles had baptized
children. He answered, that they had baptized
entire households, among which there might probably
also have been infants. I said, that the households
had addicted themselves to the ministry
(1 Cor. 16:15), which children could not do, but
it is necessary to minister to them; nevertheless he
adhered to what he had said. I asked him, if there
were a woman that had two infants, and one of them
were baptized, and the other died without baptism,
what he held in regard to this. He answered:
“The baptized infant would be saved, and the unbaptized
one not.” I said, that the blood of Christ
had more efficacy than their baptism, and that they
also baptized those to whom it did not belong; for
Christ has commanded to baptize believers, and
not infants, and has also commanded the baptized
to keep his commandments. I also said that they
were dear with baptism, but that it had no efficacy.
He therefore made many words, for he wanted to
establish infant baptism also with circumcision. But
I proved to him, that the figure was not applicable
thereto: also, that only the male children, and not
the female, were circumcised. But it was all of no
avail, it had to be a figure of baptism, and as the
uncircumcised soul had to be cut off from the people
820
of Israel, he said, so should also the unbaptized
be damned; which I contradicted him with divers
Scriptures. He said: “Joos, it seems to me, that
you understand it better than you pretend; for I
have certainly proved to you plainly enough that infants
must be baptized.” I answered him and said:
“My lord, think not that I would contradict you
against my mind and understanding, when I am in
such severe confinement.” And thus we had to be
poor and miserable men; and we had many other
words together regarding baptism; but we could
not agree on this point. When he had waited
a little with speaking, he said: “Joos, you have
suffered yourself to be lamentably deceived.” I told
him, that I had the truth, nor had I suffered myself
to be deceived; asking him, whether it was
not his opinion, that we should from this fire go into
the eternal. “O,” said he, “that is beyond a
doubt.” “I have a better hope,” said I, “and
should fain see also you come to a better knowledge.”
When he heard this, he ceased a little, as
though he were startled and terrified, and he pitied
us greatly, and I saw that he meant it from the
heart.

We further had some words concerning the incarnation
of Christ, who he said had assumed
flesh and blood from Mary. I told him, that he
should prove it to me. He quoted Rom. 1:3, that
he was David’s son according to the flesh. I said:
“I confess this too.” He then quoted Paul to the
Hebrews, where he says: “He taketh not on angels,
but he taketh on the seed of Abraham.” Hebrews
2:16. He also quoted Matt. 1, of the generation.
Thereupon I asked him, whether he did not
believe that the Word became flesh. He replied,
“Yes, for Christ assumed flesh and blood from
Mary.” I quoted to him Luke 1, that the angel
came to Mary, saluted her and said, that she should
conceive in her womb, and bring forth a son, who
should be called Jesus, and the Son of the Highest.
Mary answered and said to the angel: “How shall
this be, seeing I know not a man?” The angel answered
and said to her: “The Holy Ghost shall come
upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall
overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing
which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son
of God.” I added also Matt. 1, that the angel appeared
to Joseph in a dream, saying: “Joseph,
thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary
thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the
Holy Ghost.” I also quoted Paul, where he says:
“The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second
man is the Lord from heaven.” And that flesh and
blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians
15:47,50. But no matter what I proved
to him, he persisted that Christ must be of the nature
of Mary, so that after many other words which
we had together, concerning the incarnation of
Christ, we could not agree. He then took up the
Supper, saying that it was true flesh and blood,
which he would establish with the words of Christ,
where he says: “Except ye eat the flesh of the Son
of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood,
hath eternal life.” John 6:53,54. I replied to him,
that Christ did not speak these words with reference
to the Supper. He rejoined: “Is it not written:
Take, eat; this is my body?” (Matt. 26:26). I replied,
that it signified his body: for it is also written:
I am the true vine (John 15:1) though he was not a
natural vine. Moreover, Paul states it clearly,
where he says: “I have received of the Lord that
which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus,
the same night in which he was betrayed, took
bread, and when he had given thanks, he brake it,
and said, Take, eat, this is my body, which is broken
for you; this do in remembrance of me. After
the same manner also he took the cup, when he
had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament
in my blood: this do ye, as oft as you drink it, in
remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this
bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s
death till he come,” (mark, till he come). 1 Corinthians
11:23–26. Hence, I said, he is not present
there bodily, as you say, my lord. I also told him of
the paschal lamb, proving to him, that it was a true
figure of the Supper; but we could agree in no point.
The subject of monasteries was also brought up all
of which I called sects, and asked him, whether
God’s children must not all be spiritual. He answered:
“Yes.” I asked again, why they were
not all of one kind since there were many and
various monasteries manifestly differing from one
another in caps and ceremonies. He answered
and said that the Holy Ghost wrought manifold
gifts, with which he wanted to establish the monasteries.
I also asked him whether he had not read
the prophet Baruch. “Very likely,” he said. Then
I told him, how the prophet there warns Israel that
when they should be in Babylon, and should there
see them bear idols upon their shoulders, and
much people running before and behind, they
should think in their hearts: “O Lord, thou alone
art to be worshiped.” Baruch 6:3. And I asked
him, whether the same ought not to be done on
Sunday. He answered and said: “That is to be
only an image.” I said, that the image makers are
cursed. Ex. 20:4; Deut. 27:15. He said: “They
are the books of the simple,” and maintained, that
the images were like letters, and would also prove
that images might be made, and this with the cherubim
that were on the ark. We also had many
words together concerning the worshiping of the
saints; but we could not agree. I have been before
him three different times. O dear brethren and
sisters, let each persevere steadfastly: and heartily
entreat the Lord for us; that we may be able to
stand against all the gates of hell; for our conflict is
not little, for we are in the midst of our enemies.
Farewell all of you, and adieu till a better time.

Written in my bonds, by me,

Joost Verkindert.

Unworthy prisoner in the Lord.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see
God. Matt. 5:8.

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