# Confession Of Jacques D’Auchy, Made Before The Commissary And The Inquisitor.

16th century (source section) · Historical source

Source: Martyrs’ Mirror. Original heading: CONFESSION OF JACQUES D’AUCHY, MADE BEFORE THE COMMISSARY AND THE INQUISITOR.

Century of containing source section; exact event date not assigned

When I had been in prison ten weeks, my first
examination took place. On the third day of January,
A. D. 1558, reckoning the beginning of the
year from New Year’s day, the jailer came to me in
the afternoon, saying that I had to appear before
the commissary, in order to be examined concerning
my faith. I was ready with a glad heart, and
went thither with the jailer. When I entered the
room where the commissary sat, I humbly saluted
him. He returned my salutation, and said: “Jacques,
is your name Jacques d’Auchy?”

Jacques. “Yes, my lord.”

Com. “Jacques, I have come here commissioned
by the King, and the Procurator General, to examine
you with regard to the articles of faith.”

Jacques. “Well, my lord, be it done then in the
name of the Lord.”

After we had had many words together concerning
the faith, he began to ask me regarding the
place of my nativity, my residence, and my life from
my youth up to the present time; all of which I
confessed to him. Thereupon I was led back to
prison by the jailer.

In the afternoon of the next day, namely, the
fourth of January of the same year, I was again
brought before the same commissary. As I stood
before him, he commenced to revile, vituperate and
blaspheme the pastors and the flock of Christ, saying:
“Is it not a pity that we suffer ourselves to be
so deceived?”

Jacques. “Yes, my lord.”

Com. “I speak of you and others, who forsake
our mother the holy church, and suffer yourselves
to be deceived by a set of mischievous idlers and
vagabonds.”

Jac. “I have not suffered myself to be deceived
by such.”

Com. “No! when you believe such accursed villains
and beggars as Menno, Leenaert, Henderick
van Vreden, Frans de Kuyper, Jelis of Aix-la-Chapelle,
and other such rascals, and forsake us and
the true word of God, do you not then suffer yourselves
to be deceived?”

Jac. “I have not forsaken the word of God; for
my faith is founded upon the word of God, and not
upon men, nor upon the doctrines of men, since the
prophet Jeremiah exclaims: “Cursed be the man
that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm.”
Jer. 17:5.

A little after this the commissary cried out, saying:
“O the miscreants, such as Menno and Leenaert,
how many have they deceived and led to all
the devils and into perdition.”

Jac. “My lord, I entreat you not to say such
words; for it would be difficult and hard for you
to prove that they are such as you assert them to
be. And, again: They have not deceived, but have
clearly taught the word of God. And I do not believe
that those who have believed in the word of
God, will go into perdition; but the Lord shall
judge all things well.”

Com. “I will not dispute; for I myself receive
instruction from those that are taught in the holy
church. But I well know the character of you people,
and of your doctrine: had you but the power,
you should gladly cut our throats, which, as has
been seen, you people have done at Munster, Amsterdam,
and other places.”

Jac. “O my lord, don’t say such words against
your own conscience; for I am persuaded that you
know much better, since you have been in the
council here for twenty years, as you say (this he
had told me before); hence it seems to me that you
know us better; for if we had such wicked hearts
as to intend murdering people, we should not thus
deliver ourselves into your hands; for were we only
to speak against our conscience, and conceal the
truth from you, you would have no power over us,
since you can find no one that can accuse us with
truth of having wronged or injured any one.”

Com. “Whence then originate so many sects
and heresies? whence springs so much uproar and
mutiny?”

Jac. “As far as the sects and heresies that are
in the world are concerned; as those of Munster or
Amsterdam, or elsewhere, we have in no manner
fellowship or part with their works, nor with their
doctrines, but we regard them as doctrines of devils.
All these things cannot prevent the truth from being
truth, and the Christians from being true Christians,
any more than could in the days of the apostles all
the sects and heresies that were round about them,
and had some semblance of the word of God.”

After these and many other words which we had
together, he began to get milder in his manner, and
said to me: “You must not study so high, but suffer
yourself to be instructed by those who are more
learned and wise than you, and you must believe
in the word of God.”

Jac. “O my lord, how should I not believe in
the word of God? For this same word I am imprisoned
here, and stand now before you, to give
answer concerning it.”

Com. “You are not imprisoned for the word of
God, but for your evil deeds.”

Jac. “My lord, have you heard of any one complaining
that I wronged or injured him in any way?”

Com. “No; I have not heard that any complaint
has been made against you.”

Jac. “The Lord be praised, that it is not for my
iniquity, but for the testimony of the true faith.”

Com. “Not so; but for your crimes, since you
have offended against his Imperial Majesty, and
transgressed the command of the King our lord.”

Jac. “If I have transgressed the King’s command,
it is a small matter, since I have fulfilled the
command of that King who is the true God and
eternal King.”

Com. “You have also transgressed the command
of God, and of our mother the holy church.”

571

Jac. “My lord, you cannot prove to me by the
holy Scriptures, nor can any one else, that herein
I have transgressed God’s command.”

Com. “It shall be proven to you. Well then,
let us begin to finish the articles in which I have
been charged to examine you.”

We had many more words, which it would take
me too long to relate here, besides that I do not
remember them well. The commissary was somewhat
discouraged, and listened attentively to whatever
I wished to say.

Thereupon he asked me when I came to Emden,
and where I had taken up residence, and whether I
had been directed to these people, I answered:
“Yes.” Com. “Who directed you?” Jac. “A good
friend.” Com. “In whose house were you?” Jac.
“I do not know the house in which I was.” Com.
“Who was it that brought you to Leenaert?” Jac.
“They were men and youths, women and maidens.”
Com. “What were their names?” Jac. “As
to their surnames, I should have had much to do, to
know them all by their names and surnames, since I
was not there long enough to learn them all.” Com.
“When you came into the house, where was Leenaert?
what did he preach about?” Jac. “He
preached the pure word of God.” Com. “Of what,
and of which articles did he preach?” Jac. “He
taught amendment of life, and that we must put off
the old man, and put on the new; he forcibly showed
by the Scriptures that those who walk after the flesh,
and after their lusts, have no part in the kingdom of
God.” Com. “Did he not speak of some other
things?” Jac. “My lord, I should have much to
do, to retain all, even as it would cost you, I think,
much trouble and labor to retain a sermon that was
preached eighteen months or two years ago.” Com.
“Did you there receive your second baptism?”
Jac. “I have received but one baptism, and that according
to the ordinance of Christ.” Com. “Did
you not also receive a baptism in your infancy?”
Jac. “I do not know what was done to me in my
infancy, I have no remembrance of it.” Com. “Did
not your father or your mother tell you that you
were baptized, and did you not have sponsors?”
Jac. “Yes, I think they told me, and I have also
called some persons godfather and godmother, but
this was not in accordance with the Scriptures.”
Com. “Well, was that not enough? have you besides
this received something more from Leenaert,
namely, water or baptism according to your notion?”
Jac. “I received from him baptism according
to the word of God.” Com. “Do you not consider
the baptism good which you received in your
infancy?” Jac. “Had I considered it good, and a
baptism, I should not have received another; for it
is written that there is one Lord, one faith, and one
baptism, and not many baptisms.” Eph. 4:5. Com.
“Did you receive the baptism which Leenaert administered
to you in the house in which you were
assembled?” Jac. “Yes.” Com. “Was it after
or before preaching?” Jac. “After preaching.”
Com. “Did he not speak of baptism?” Jac. “Yes
and he showed by the holy Scriptures, what it was,
and what baptism signified; he humbly admonished
the applicants for baptism, to observe well and take
good heed what they accepted, and showed the cross
and persecution which result to them that have come
so far; and many other demonstrations from the holy
Scriptures.” Com. “Were you not afraid of the
decree of the Emperor?” Jac. “No; neither am I
now.” Com. “Jacques, it will go hard with you,
unless you submit to mercy for your misdeed.”
Jac. “My lord, I expect mercy from the Lord; but
I am not aware that I have offended against the
Emperor or the King, for which I should look for
mercy. And if the decree is contrary to the word of
God, it does not appear to me that in fulfilling the
command of God, I offend against any one whoever
he be!” Com. “Jacques, Jacques, think what the
decree says.” Jac. “My lord, I well know that it
has more authority in this world than the word of
God, to put to death those who believe on his name
and depart from unrighteousness, as is written that
it should be so. (Is. 59:15; Matt. 10:17). But what
will it signify when you shall have done with me according
to the decree, and shall have put me to
death? You will have nothing but a vile and mortal
body, which is subject to corruption; but as regards
the soul, you cannot touch it, and when you
appear before God’s judgment, you shall know what
you have done.” Matt. 10:28. Com. “Jacques,
I do not seek your death, God knows; I should
be sorry to see you suffer in the least.” Jac. “My
lord, this will be seen in the end, how comes it then
that you thus shed the innocent blood here, when
you do not understand the faith as you have told
me? Why do you not ordain then that those who
cannot recognize your faith to be true and good, be
banished from the country, with retention of their
life and property, as is done throughout Germany,
and also in Oostland,276 which countries do not judge
the word of God, to shed blood?”

After many other words he asked: “What do you
think and believe of the sacrament of the altar?”
Jac. “Do you mean the breaking of bread?” Com.
“Yes.” Jac. “I confess and believe as Christ ordained
it, as the apostles practiced it, and as Paul
writes concerning it to the Corinthians,” Com.
“How do you understand it?” Jac. “Just as it is
written; I do not want to comment on the word of
God.” This satisfied him, and he so wrote it down
on his paper. Com. “What do you think of the
mass, confession, and absolution of the priest?” Jac.
“As regards the mass, I know it not, nor do the
Scriptures; I have never read this name in the word
of God.” Com. “What shall I write then in regard
to this?” Jac. “I do not know; whatever you
please, my lord.” Com. “Will you not confess
simply that you believe in the ordinances of the true
and holy church, according to the teaching of the
Scriptures and as a good Christian is bound to believe?”
Jac. “Yes, my lord, with all my heart.”
He wrote this down. Com. “Who were your instructors
in this doctrine, and with whom did you
converse in the beginning, and in what place?”
Jac. “I had my conversation at Antwerp, speaking
of the Scriptures with many, but my principal
572
instruction and foundations I derived from reading
the holy word of the Lord.” He also wrote this
down.

Com. “Now, see here is an important article,
namely, whether you have not been a minister, or a
deacon over the poor, or an exhorter, or have held
some other office in the assemblies of the brethren?”
Thus it was written on his paper as well as I could
perceive or see. I did not know at first what he
meant by calling this so important an article: I answered
thereupon: “No; I do not feel myself qualified
for it, but am a humble member in the congregation.”
Com. “Were you never in a meeting, before
you received baptism?” Jac. “Yes, two or three
times at least.” Com. “In what place was it, and
in what houses?” Jac. “As regards the houses, I do
not know to whom they belong.” Com. “What kind
of houses were they, large or small?” Jac. “We
assemble wherever we best can, as opportunity
offers itself, and I remember to have been in very
poor little houses, that resembled stables more than
houses.” He thus wrote this down on his paper.
Com. “Did you also attend the meeting with the
brethren, after you received baptism?” Jac. “My
lord, this answers for itself; you may well suppose
that if I was there before, I was there still more afterwards.”
Com. “Is your wife of the same doctrine
as you are, and is she also rebaptized?” Jac.
“I have enough to do to answer for myself without
answering for my wife; and if she were here, she
could answer for herself; but nevertheless, I regard
her as a woman that fears the Lord.” This satisfied
him.

On Saturday morning, the 8th of January of said
year 1558, I was brought into the same room, before
the inquisitor, who had lately been appointed here
by the King of Spain, with full power from him to
bind or to loose, to release or to put to death.
When I came before him, I humbly saluted him; he
returned my salutation and said to me: “Jacques, I
am very glad of one thing, namely, at what the Procurator
General has told me, that you are ready to
confess your guilt, if it can be proven to you by the
Scriptures that you have transgressed the commandment
of God; and are in error; are you still of the
same intention, and will you accept the Scriptures?”
Jac. “Yes; and I am ready to listen to all good instruction
according to the word of God.” He had
the confession which I had made before the commissary,
and asked me: “Will you still confess that
you received baptism from Leenaert?” Jac. “My
word is not yea and nay, but yea, yea, and as I confessed,
so I still confess openly?” Inquisitor. “Was
not the baptism which you received in your infancy
enough for you, without receiving another?” Jac.
“I do not regard the baptism which I received in
my infancy as baptism according to the word and
ordinance of God.” Inq. “I shall prove it to you;
but do you not believe that infants are born in
original sin?” Jac. “David indeed says that he
was conceived in sin, even as all infants are; but sin
is not imputed unto them, since Christ has died to
take away sin, as Paul testifies everywhere in his
epistles. And as by one man sin entered into the
world, and death by sin, so grace has abounded
through Jesus Christ.” Rom. 5:12,15. Inq. “How
are infants purified, if it is not done through baptism?”
Jac. “They are purified through the blood
of Christ, since he is the Lamb which taketh away
the sin of the world.” Inq. “How are they purified
from original sin?” Jac. “My lord, I have told
you, namely, through the blood of the Son of God,
who died for us when we were yet enemies, and unbelieving.”
Inq. “Do you not believe that infants
bear their sin from Adam, till they are purified
through baptism.”

Jac. “This must be proven to me by the Scriptures;
I believe the word of the prophet, who says:
‘The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father,
neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son;
but the soul that sinneth it shall die.’ ” Ezekiel
18:20. Inq. “It is not to be understood thus; but
the child is impure until it has received baptism.”
Jac. “Are the infants purified through the external
sign of the water?” Inq. “No; but they must be
purified with water, and then with the Holy Ghost.”
Jac. “Which washing precedes; the external or the
internal?” Inq. “The external; and after these
words: In the name of the Father, and of the Son,
and of the Holy Ghost have been spoken, they ape
purified internally.” Jac. “My lord, you say this
without warrant of Scripture; for Christ says that
those are hypocrites who first make clean the outside;
but that first, that which is within shall be
cleansed, and the outside will be clean also. Matthew
23:25,26. Inq. “You err, and do not understand
the Scriptures, and have suffered yourself to be deceived
by a set of vagabonds.” Jac. “My lord,
I rely not upon men; but it has not been given me
to understand it differently, and men can not
give me the faith; for it is written in the
prophets: ‘They shall all be taught of God.’
Is. 54:13. And Jesus Christ says that no man
can come to him, except it be given him of the
Father. John 6:44. But now, my Lord, prove to
me exclusively by the Scriptures, that the baptism
of little infants is a planting and ordinance of God,
and that it was practiced by the apostles, and I shall
believe it.”

Inq. “The ordinance was made by Jesus Christ,
when he said: ‘Except a man be born of water
and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom
of God.’ ” John 3:5. Jac. “Christ is not speaking
to infants, but to a doctor in the law; nor does he
speak of little infants that have just been born; for
he says afterwards in the same chapter: ‘That
which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is
born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said
unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth
where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound
thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and
whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the
Spirit.’ ” Verses 6–8.

After I had read this in his German testament,
printed at Zurich, I said: “My lord, if the external
baptism of infants is the new birth, we know whence
it comes, for we can see it with our eyes.” Inq.
“How do you understand it then?” Jac. “I understand
it to be the new birth of him that was in
the old Adam, in the body of sin; that we must put
573
him off, and mortify and crucify the body of sin, together
with all its lusts and affections, in order to be
born again unto newness of life, after the new man
Christ Jesus, as Paul testifies at length.” Inq. “This
is to be understood with reference to adult persons;
but the little infants that are impure, must be
cleansed with water, that they may obtain salvation.”
Jac. “What do you believe concerning infants
that do not receive baptism here, according to
the faith which you hold, namely, from the Pope?”
Inq. “They all go to the devils.” Jac. “O my
lord, it is written: ‘If you Judge, judge righteously.’
And Christ says: ‘With what judgment
ye judge, ye shall be judged.’ Matt. 7:2. You
condemn innocent infants, notwithstanding Christ
says that theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew
18:3. Inq. “Those children were baptized or at least
had received circumcision, which served them instead
of baptism.” Jac. “The Scripture does not
state that they were circumcised, and you cannot
show whether they were Jewish or gentile children.”
Inq. “The inhabitants of Jerusalem and thereabouts
in Judea, were all Jews.” Jac. “Luke makes a different
statement, saying (Acts 2:5) that at Jerusalem,
in Judea, every kind of tongue under heaven
was represented.” Inq. “Is it not a sad thing of
you people, that you thus err in the Scriptures?
Does not Paul say that he [Christ] cleansed his
church with the washing of water?” Jac. “Paul
says: ‘With the washing of water by the Word.’
Eph. 5:26. Now, then, can you cleanse infants by
the Word? or only by the washing of water? for
they cannot believe the Word.” Inq. “Then they
are damned, since they do not believe.” Jac.
“Don’t speak thus; for they are innocent and
poor in spirit, and to such belongs the kingdom of
heaven.” Matt. 5:3. He said as before: “First of
all they must be purified by water baptism, in order
to attain salvation.” Jac. “The apostle Peter clearly
declares that as the ark which Noah had made preserved
from death and the wrath of God those who
had forsaken the company of the wicked and of the
world, and had entered into it, so baptism is to us
for salvation; but the apostle does not at all esteem the
baptism which takes away the filth of the flesh, unless
there be a good testimony of a good conscience
before God; and I do not believe that infants have
the testimony of a good conscience, since they know
neither good nor evil.” 1 Peter 3:21.

He made no reply to this, but looked at me
sharply, and, after a few moments said: “Is it Calvin
who writes: ‘Attestation (that is, testimony) of
a good conscience?’ These are the false prophets
that deceive you, people; but the genuine text does
not read so.” Jac. “I am not imprisoned for the
doctrine of Calvin.” I begged him again and again
to let me read in his book, how the apostle wrote it,
namely, in his own testament which he had before
him, or in his Latin Bible, which was of very small
size, and translated and printed by Rombertus Stephanus,
at Paris. But however I prayed him, he
would not let me read; hence I said to him: “My
lord, you ought not prevent me from proving the
word, since you contradict it.” After additional
words he said to me: “Since you will not believe
in the holy teachers, such as St. Ambrose and St.
Augustine (and a host of other saints whom he
named to me), and in the ordinances instituted by
the holy church, what then will you believe?” Jac.
“I believe only in the ordinance of Christ; or prove
to me that the apostles baptized little infants, and I
shall believe it.”

He attempted to do this by the households that
were baptized, in which, he said, infants might well
have been included. I replied that the Scriptures
said nothing about there having been any infants
there, but that they clearly prove that those households
heard and believed the word, as is written of
the jailer, and also of Cornelius, the centurion, and
all that were of his house, who received the Holy
Ghost as well as the apostles; namely, those who
heard the word. Acts 16:34; 10:45. Hence, my
lord, you cannot prove to me, that there were infants
there.” Inq. “I will not insist upon it that
there were infants there, or that there were none
there, since it admits of doubt; but you must believe
what the fathers and the holy doctors have ordained
concerning it in the church, and practiced until the
present time.” Jac. “Did those teachers institute
this ordinance with a good intention; or did they
institute it because it was an ordinance of God, contained
in the Scriptures?” Inq. “They did it according
to the word of God, with a good intention.”
Jac. “My lord, you well know how strictly the
people of Israel were forbidden to do anything according
to their own opinion, but that they were
only to do what the Lord commanded them. Deuteronomy
4:2. For Saul was rejected of God, because
he had not acted truly according to the word
of the Lord which had been commanded him, but
had followed his own opinion.” 1 Sam. 15:23.

After many other words, which we had together,
he went away from me, saying: “Jacques, I beg
you, that you will well consider this matter; for you
are in error and deceived.” Jac. “I am neither in
error or deceived, and I have already considered
the matter: since you cannot prove to me by the
Scriptures that the baptism of infants is an ordinance
of God, hence I do not believe it.” Inq. “Why
do you want me to prove it, since you do not believe
in the holy teachers of the Catholic church,
nor their ordinance.” Jac. “My lord, it is written:
‘Every plant which my heavenly Father hath not
planted shall be rooted up.’ ” Matt. 5:13. After
many other words he went away, saying to me:
“Farewell, Jacques; consider the matter well and
pray diligently to God.” I also bade him adieu, and
said that I did indeed hope always to call upon the
name of the Lord for help. Ps. 116:4.

There were many other words that we had together,
which I have not written, because I do not
remember them well, and I was seized with an
attack of fever. I have forgotten to write his allegations
with which he sought to prove that circumcision
was a figure of baptism, and hence, it [the
latter] had to be used in like manner; whereupon
I proved to him by the Scriptures, that circumcision
was a figure of the covenant, and signified nothing
but that they were included in the covenant, and
children to whom belonged the promise. Genesis
574
17:11. But Paul shows us that he is not a Jew
or child of Abraham, who is one outwardly, or according
to the flesh of his seed; but he that is one
in the heart, as Christ says, that they are Abraham’s
children, who do the works of Abraham, though
they be Gentiles according to the seed of the flesh.
Rom. 2:28,29; John 8:39. And I showed him that
baptism signifies the true regeneration, even as
Christ showed Nicodemus, and the putting off of
the old man, in newness of life, and that hence we
had to be regenerated, and not born anew, as they
would assert; and that where there was no regeneration,
there was no need of a sign, since this were
only mocking God. John 3:5; Rom. 6:4. He said
to me: “Shall the infants have no part then in this
sacrament?” I told him that the sacraments had
been left to be used in the holy church, for those
who have ears to hear, and hearts to comprehend,
and to understand the sacraments; and not for infants.
We conversed much more yet on this article,
and I showed to him the abuse which they have in
their baptism, contrary to the Scriptures, and concerning
the baptism of prudent midwives, how that
they regard it as good, and yet rebaptize the recipients
of it; I therefore told him that they were
Anabaptists.

On Monday, the 10th of January of the same
year, I was again brought before the same inquisitor,
who, after a few words, asked me: “Have you
made up your mind with regard to baptism?” Jac.
“I have nothing else to say, than what I have told
you already: since you cannot prove to me with the
Scriptures, that the baptizing of little infants is an
ordinance of Christ, I do not believe in it, but hold
to the baptism which Jesus Christ ordained, and
which he commanded his apostles.” Inq. “This
the false prophets have taught you, of whom the
Scripture says that they shall come, and who have
gone out from us.” Jac. “Such false prophets
shall be known by their fruits, says the Lord. And
as regards your remark that they went out from you.
Paul, when at Miletus, showed to the elders of
Ephesus (Acts 20:30), that among them, and out
from the flock, there should arise wicked men,
teaching perverse things—is it not so, my lord?”
Inq. “Yes.” Jac. “Is not, then, my lord, the baptism
which you people practice, a perverse and utterly
contrary thing, since Christ commanded to
baptize those who believed and were instructed and
taught. And the apostles baptized only those who
received the word; but you people baptize only
those that do not believe, and cannot be instructed
or taught, nor receive the word, since they are infants:
which appears to me utterly contrary, and like
putting the cart before the horse.” Inq. “This is
because you are in heresy, my child, and do not believe
the holy teachers; see how it will go with you.
Well then, let us speak of another article.” And
having seen and read the confession which I had
read before the commissary, as I said before, he
asked me: “What do you believe of the eucharist?”
Jac. “What is that?” Inq. “Of the sacrament of
the altar.” Jac. “Do you mean the Lord’s Supper,
or breaking of bread?” Inq. “Yes, it is the same
thing, eucharist, sacrament or supper.” Jac. “My
lord, it is not the same name; for, see, how the
apostles named it: Luke says that they brake
bread from house to house, and not the body of
Christ.” Acts 2:46. Inq. “That which Luke
speaks of there, is the word of God, which they distributed
to every one.” Jac. “My lord, so say
also David Joris and other heretics, who abolish the
breaking of bread. But observe, when Paul was at
Troas and they had gathered together in the night,
so that a young man fell down from the high loft,
Luke says that Paul continued his speech until
midnight, so that the young man fell through a
window; and when they had come up again, Paul
having raised him up, they brake bread and eat it—they
did not eat the word; after which Paul talked
till break of day, and then departed.” Acts 20:7.

When he heard this he looked at me sharply, and
did not know what to say. “Do you not believe,”
said he “that when the priest has pronounced the
words, our Lord is in the bread, in flesh and blood,
just as the Jews had it in their hands, and crucified
it?” This question he asked me very many times,
and as I did not seek to dispute with him, I said:
“My lord, if you can prove it to me by the Scriptures,
I will believe it.” He urged me, saying: “Say
yes or no, what do you believe of it?” Jac. “That
which the Scriptures testify with regard to it.” Inq.
“I ask you whether you do not believe that he is
in the sacrament, in the flesh and blood, just as he
was on the cross?” Perceiving that he became
heated, I delayed a little with my answer. Inq.
“Well, what do you say?” Jac. “Nothing, my
lord.” Inq. “That I hear, but why do you wait so
long with answering, yes or no?” Jac. “My lord,
it is written: ‘Be swift to hear and slow to speak.’ ”
James 1:19. Inq. “Well then, Jacques, say but
yes or no; if you believe that he is in the bread, in
flesh and blood, say yes.” Jac. “My lord, if I were
to say yes to you, how could I prove it to you by
the Scriptures, that he is there in flesh and blood,
after the priest has pronounced the words? for I
have never read it in the Scriptures, and since I
could not prove it to you, therefore I will not say that
it is so.” Inq. “Then you do not believe it, do I
hear, No?” Jac. “I believe nothing further concerning
it than what the Scriptures testify, and how
should he be in the bread, my lord? since it is written,
that he ascended into heaven, and sits on the
right hand of his Father, until he shall have made
his enemies his footstool.” Mark 16:19; Inq. “Do
you not believe that he is able to sit on the right
hand of his Father, and also to be in the bread?”
Jac. “I believe that he is the Almighty; but he
cannot do contrary to his word: for he must be true,
and he is the only truth himself.” John 14:6.
Inq. “Will you not believe this Scripture: Take,
eat; this is my body, which is given for you? do
you not believe then that it is his body?” Jac.
“Which do you believe to be his body, that which
was delivered and suffered for us, and sat at the table,
and spoke, or that which he held in his hand,
namely, the bread? was this delivered for us, and
did the bread die on the cross for our sins? and did
not the bread represent his body?” Inq. “Both.”
Jac. “I have never read that there are two Christs,
575
but only one only Son of God.” This I had often told
him before. Inq. “These two are but one; and the
wine, too, is his blood, after the priest has pronounced
the words.” Jac. “Does the wine become
his blood, after the word has been spoken, and does
it always remain blood, and not wine?” Inq. “After
the word has been spoken, the bread is his true
flesh, and the wine is the true blood of Christ, and
they remain flesh and blood.” Jac. “What then
did Christ mean to indicate to his disciples, when he
said: ‘This is my blood of the new testament,
which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of
this fruit of the vine.’ Matt. 26:29, etc. My lord,
Christ calls it his blood of the New Testament, and
yet he indicates to his apostles, that it is still a fruit
of the vine, seeing he still calls it so, after he has
said that it is his blood.” Inq. “Where do we find
this written?”

I then took his German testament, which he had
before him, and read the passage to him. After I
had showed and read it to him, he said to me:
“You must not govern yourself according to your
own understanding, but according to the exposition
of the holy teachers, such as St. Augustine, Ambrose,
and others of the ancient church.” Jac. “I
am well satisfied with St. Paul’s exposition, without
seeking for many other expositions.” Inq. “Where
has Paul expounded the sacrament of the altar?”
Jac. “Paul has expounded and indicated to the
Corinthians, what the Lord’s supper and the breaking
of the bread is.” Inq. “Show it to me?” I
still had his testament, and read to him the tenth
chapter of the first epistle to the Corinthians, where
Paul says: “I speak as to wise men; judge ye what
I say. The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not
the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread
which we break, is it not the communion of the
body of Christ?” Verses 15,16.

I had scarcely read this when he hastily replied:
“This is against you, for the apostle there clearly
proves that there is flesh and blood in the bread and
wine, and that we are partakers of the body of
Christ.” Jac. “My lord, if you please, let me read
a little further, and you shall see that Paul is not
speaking of the body of Christ in flesh and blood, as
it hung on the cross; but of his church, which is his
body; for when he says that we have communion,
and are partakers of the body of Christ, he says:
‘For we being many, are one bread, and one body:
for we are all partakers of that one bread.’ ”
Verse 17. Inq. “The apostle speaks here of another
body, namely, of his church.” Jac. “I do
not find that Paul makes any distinction between
two bodies, but that he speaks of but one body of
Christ.” Inq. “What then do you understand by
eating his body and drinking his blood?” Jac.
“Just what Paul indicates, that it is the communion
or partaking of the body of Christ.” Inq. “My
child, how deceived you are! do you understand
then, that you can by communion be a partaker of
the body and blood of Christ, without eating and
drinking thereof?” Jac. “My lord, I am not deceived,
but my foundation is the word of God.”
Inq. “Well then, what do you understand by this
communion?” Jac. “The apostle tells us this,
when he says, in the same chapter: Behold Israel
after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices
partakers of the altar? Verse 18. Behold, my
lord, here is the simile by which Paul indicates it to
the Corinthians; do you not also understand it so,
my lord?” Inq. “Yes.” Jac. “My lord, I do not
think that you mean that those who were partakers
of the altar, therefore ate the altar, but only
the sacrifices which lay on the altar.” Inq. “Do
you think that the same obtains with the sacrament?”
Jac. “My lord, it seems to me, that when
we eat the bread, we thereby signify that we have
part in the body of Christ; and yet we eat only the
bread, and not Christ, just as Israel did not eat the
altar, but only the sacrifices, and yet, by eating the
sacrifices, indicated that they were partakers of the
altar.”

Looking sharply at me, he said: “What an error!
and do you not believe that in eating the consecrated
bread we eat the body of Christ?” Jac. “Paul
does not teach this, neither do I understand it so.”
Inq. “Is it not a sad thing of you people, Jacques,
that you do not believe the word of God, which
says: This is my body; this is my blood; do this in
remembrance of me?” Jac. “I believe the word of
God; Christ clearly indicated that he should not be
there bodily, since he said that it should be done in
remembrance of him. Paul also says: ‘As often as
ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew
the Lord’s death till he come.’ 1 Cor. 11:26. Hence
he is not there bodily, seeing he has not come yet.”
Inq. “He is certainly there bodily, according to
to the word of Christ, and all the holy teachers expound
it so.” Jac. “I think more of Paul singly,
than of all the other teachers, and I hold only to
Paul’s exposition.” Inq. “You must also believe
the holy teachers of the Catholic church.” Jac. “I
believe the holy Scriptures, and only the word of
God.” Inq. “If you believe the word of God, you
must believe that he that (when the bread is consecrated,
and the words have been pronounced), receives
it bodily, receives the body and blood of
Christ, since Christ says so, and he does not lie, but
speaks the truth.” Jac. “I know full well that Christ
speaks the truth, but we must understand how he
speaks when he says: ‘I am the bread which came
down from heaven, and the bread that I will give is
my flesh’ (John 6:51); do you believe this?” Inq.
“No, do you believe it?” Jac. “I shall not tell
you, neither do we now dispute about it; but because
you say that we must believe as Christ says; behold,
when he says: ‘I am the vine and my Father is the
husbandman.’ John 15:1. Paul also says that the
Rock of which the children of Israel drank was
Christ.” 1 Cor. 10:4. Inq. “No, no, all these
words are not to be believed thus; they are only
types of Christ.” Jac. “So is this expression.”
Inq. “But this is a sacrament, which is left us as a
memorial of the body of Christ.” Jac. “My lord,
behold Israel after the flesh; the lamb which they
ate was called the passover and a perpetual memorial,
that through the mighty hand of God they had
gone out of Egypt, out of the house of bondage; and
so is also the bread which we break, a memorial of
576
Christ, who has redeemed us from sin and eternal
death, delivering us from the bondage of the devil
and the enemy.” Inq. “Yes, according to the
opinion of your pastors, Calvin and Zuinglius, and
like heretics, who have introduced new doctrines;
but we have been in this faith over fourteen hundred
years; why do you not believe us?” Jac. “My
lord, should I believe because of the long time?
there were many heretics, such as the Sadducees,
Nicolaitans, Gentiles, and many others, who erred
much longer yet. Turn to the Scriptures alone, according
to the example of the good King Josiah.”
2 Kings 22:11. Inq. “Do you think so my son?
No, no.” Jac. “My lord, so did the children say
to Jeremiah, when they were out of the way. Jer.
18:18. You also well know how they abused the
grace of God, making a golden calf, praising it and
saying: ‘This is the god which brought us up and
delivered us out of Egypt.’ Ex. 32:4. Thus your
people now say of the bread. It is Christ who died
for us.”

He became angry, and asked me: “Are we idolaters,
because we worship Christ?” Jac. “No, if he
is in the bread; but if he is not in it, what else are
you?” Inq. “Well then, what do you believe concerning
it? say but a word, yes or no.” Jac. “My
lord, you have heard that I believe that he sits on
the right hand of his Father in heaven.” Inq. “But
in the bread?” Jac. “My lord, I have told you
that I believe in regard to this according to the
testimony of Paul.” Inq. “Then you do not believe,
I perceive, that the holy flesh of Christ is
eaten as a sacrament?” Jac. “Do all who receive
the bread, also receive the body of Christ?” Inq.
“Yes, completely, whoever they may be.” Jac.
“Does a robber, murderer, rogue, or other person
who is full of treachery, deceit and wickedness, and
who feels no sorrow or grief for his evil deeds, but
does still intend to lead such a wicked life, does
such an one receive the body and blood of Christ?”
Inq. “Though he were the worst man in the world,
yea, even a Turk or heathen, if he came to the sacrament,
he would receive the body and blood of
Christ, as well as any other person, yea, what is
more yet, if he were a beast.” Jac. “How, my
lord, could it be possible, that the unbelieving, ungodly
and unrighteous, to whom eternal damnation
is promised, should receive the body and blood of
Christ? It would necessarily follow, contrary to all
Scripture, God willing or not, that they would have
eternal life, and the beasts as well as we, because
the Lord has promised that whosoever eats his flesh,
and drinks his blood, has eternal life; and thus the
ungodly would have part in the body of Christ and
of Belial, in light and in darkness, which is impossible,
as Paul says.” John 6:54; 2 Cor. 6:15. Inq.
“How? do you not understand what Paul says,
that he that eats this body, receives his judgment?”
Jac. “Hold on, my lord; do not break the Scriptures,
for Paul says: this bread; and not: this body.”
1 Cor. 11:27. Inq. “Well then, whosoever eats of
this body, or this bread, and drinks this cup, unworthily,
receives damnation to himself.” Jac. “My
lord, he that receives his judgment is far from receiving
the body of Christ; but it is the sentence
of his death that he receives.” Inq. “Well then,
you certainly acknowledge these words of Jesus
Christ: ‘Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my
blood, hath eternal life’ (Jn. 6:54); hence you must
certainly believe that we can eat and drink him, as
he says.” Jac. “I believe the words of Jesus Christ,
but not in the manner the Jews did, who were offended
at him, and said: ‘How can this man give
us his blood to drink, and his flesh to eat?’ yea,
even his disciples.” Inq. “This was because they
did not understand it well.” Jac. “This I readily
believe; for if they had understood it well, they
would not have said it, and his disciples would not
have forsaken him because of these words, as they
did.” Inq. “Understand well, my son, this was
because they understood that his flesh had to be
eaten roasted or boiled, like other meat; but he
spoke of the sacramental eating; otherwise the eating
would not have availed anything. But do you
not believe that we eat his flesh sacramentally,
which is a sacrament, which he left us under the
form of bread and wine, into which he has transformed
himself?” Jac. “Then he left behind him
things that are good for nothing.” Inq. “How
so?” Jac. “For this reason, my lord, when his
disciples understood it so grossly, as you and others
do, he said to them that the flesh profited nothing,
but the Spirit that quickeneth; and my words, said
he, are spirit and life (Jn. 6:63); hence, what profit
is it, if we eat his flesh?” Inq. “This was because
they did not understand it well, as I have already
told you.” Jac. “My lord, I indeed believe that if
they had understood it well, it would not have been
necessary for him to indicate to them that he had
allusion to his word.” Inq. “How do you know
that he was speaking of his word?” Jac. “My lord,
I know that it was of his word, even as it is written
that man shall not live by bread alone, but by the
word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God,
which alone quickens us in God unto eternal life.”
Matt. 4:4. Inq. “Behold, how your deceivers have
instructed you in their new doctrines.” Jac. “My
foundation does not rest upon men, but upon the
word of God.” Inq. “Why then will you not believe,
like your mother the holy church, that after
the words are pronounced, the bread and the wine
are changed?” Jac. “My lord, I have already told
you that it is because there is nothing of this kind
written in the Scriptures, for neither the bread nor
the wine which Christ gave were changed.” Inq.
“O, certainly it was.” Jac. “My lord, I have
proven to you, that he still calls it a fruit of the
vine, after the words were spoken.” Inq. “Do you
not believe then, Jacques, that Jesus Christ is Almighty?
and that he had power to give his disciples
his blood to drink?” Jac. “I know, my lord, that
he is Almighty, and that he was able to do it; and
even if he had done it, my lord, has he promised
you, that you people should also perform such a
work?” Inq. “But is Jesus Christ not able to leave
us this in his sacrament, for a testament?” Jac.
“Yes, my lord, had he said so; for he had power
over the winds, and the devils, to change water into
wine, and to make himself invisible. Matt. 8:26;
John 2:9; Luke 4:30. In short, I believe that he is
577
Almighty in all things; but a sinful man does not
have this power.” Inq. “Not! if he utters the
same words of Christ?” Jac. “The power does
not lie in the words: this would be the same as
sorcery. And if any one were to say to a sick man:
‘Be thou whole,’ in the same manner in which
Christ said it, it would not heal him.” Inq. “Then
you do not believe that Christ Jesus is in the
bread?” Jac. “My lord, I think you have heard
my resolution as to what I believe with regard to it.
Christ said that we should do it in remembrance
of him: now, if he were present, how could it be
done in remembrance of him?” Inq. “O how
these villains, Zuinglius and Calvin, have deceived
you; those profaners of the sacrament, who pervert
all Scripture into the contrary.” Jac. “My faith is
not founded upon the doctrine of either Calvin or
Zuinglius.” Inq. “Upon what then?” Jac. “Upon
the word of God, and the foundation of the apostles.”
Inq. “How? you do not believe the word
of God.” Jac. “My lord, how should I not believe
the word of God? For this same word I am a prisoner,
and stand here in chains before you, to bear
witness to it.” Inq. “My son, it is for the word
of Satan, and not for the word of God.” Jac. “My
lord, take care what you say, lest you blaspheme;
for I have not quoted the word of Satan for my doctrine
and faith, but the pure word of God; but you
quote to me the word and exposition of men.” Inq.
“It is the word of the holy teachers of the church,
whom you reject; behold here the cause of your
error.” Jac. “I do not reject them, but I leave
them undisturbed; for I find material enough in the
word of God, to lay a good foundation, and water
of life enough to drink in the pure fountain, without
running to the brooks or pools, which are mostly
filthy and turpid.” Inq. “Well, this does not bring
us any further; it is late already; since you will not
believe as our mother the holy church instructs you,
take heed and consider the matter well; for you are
in such error, that if you die in this state, you will
be damned to all the devils, in the depths of hell.”
Jac. “My lord, it is written that judgment belongs
to God alone; how then do you so presumptuously
usurp God’s place? God will judge me.” Inq.
“Jacques, this is all clear; for you do not believe,
and he that believeth not is damned, says Christ.”
Mark 16:16. Jac. “It is written: Judge not according
to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
John 7:24. If I did not believe it, I would
not quote the word of God in my defense.” Inq.
“All heretics do this. Well then, pray earnestly to
God, that you may return to the holy church.” Jac.
“I trust through the grace of God, that I have
become a member of the true and holy church,
which has been cleansed and purchased with the
blood of Jesus Christ.”

Thereupon he arose, and said to me: “Adieu,
Jacques, see that you come to a good conclusion;
for your time is short; consider the matter well.” I
also bade him adieu, and told him that I was ready
always to follow that which was best, in what should
be proven to me by the holy Scriptures, and
nothing else.

We had many other words yet concerning this
matter, for about two hours; but I have forgotten
them. He listens attentively, and does not easily
become heated; we spoke sometimes in Flemish,
and sometimes in French; for the most part, however,
I spoke in Flemish, because of the listeners
whom I heard before the door.

Behold here the two articles in regard to which
one is most tormented by them. Every time that
he returned to me, he brought some subtle scripture
with which to catch me; but, the Lord be praised,
I was always victorious. I have been before them
full eighteen or twenty times, and were I to write
all the discourses which I had with them in regard
to these two articles, I should require a ream of
paper, so great was the number of unscriptural
comparisons and similes which they adduced to me;
but I always referred them to the Scriptures. If
there be anything in my hymns, which does not
accord with this writing, it need surprise no one;
for though I were to write never so much, I should
not be able to write all that was spoken between us.
Thus they tormented me.

On Friday afternoon, the 14th of January 1558,
I was again brought before the inquisitor. I appeared
before him, and he saluted me cheerfully,
for, as much as I could perceive, wine had made
him very merry; he brought no books with him.
After we had exchanged a few words with each
other, he said to me: “Jacques, the reason why
I have come here, is simply to learn your decision:
for I will no more dispute with you about the articles
of faith, such as the mass, confession, indulgences,
purgatory, and invocation of the saints, or
other ordinances of our mother the holy church.”
Jac. “My lord, I am well satisfied; I also do not
seek to dispute, but simply to believe what we are
bound to believe, as far as the articles of faith are
concerned.” Inq. “Yes, we have not much to do
with disputing; for Paul says: A man that is a heretic,
after the first and second admonition, avoid.”
Tit. 3:10. Jac. “My lord, how can you reprove
me for heresy, seeing you have not yet convicted
me of being a heretic.” Inq. “Not? are you not
a heretic, since you contradict the Christian faith?”
Jac. “I do not contradict the faith, for all my purpose
tends to it; but you take one view of the
Scriptures, and I another, and no one can judge
which is right, and which is wrong, except spiritual
men through the Spirit of God.” 1 Cor. 2:15.

He laughingly asked me: “Have you the Spirit
of God?” Jac. “My lord, you must not ask me
this in jest; for I do not boast of it; nevertheless,
I trust through the grace of God, that I am not
actuated by the spirit of Satan.” Inq. “Nevertheless,
you are deceived and in error, and Paul says
that such shall be avoided after the first or second
admonition.” Jac. “Since then you regard us as
heretics, O that God would give, that you would
at least use Paul’s advice, that is shun us, and withdraw
from us, and not persecute us unto death, and
shed our blood in every corner.” Inq. “Jacques,
I do not seek your death, God knows.” Jac. “My
lord, my God truly knows it well, and it will be
seen in the end.” Inq. “Yes, we only do what we
578
have been charged with and commanded to do.”
Jac. “By whom, my lord, by God or by men?”
Inq. “We are commanded by God to avoid false
prophets.” Jac. “It is indeed true, my lord, that
Christ admonishes us to beware of false prophets,
but he gives us a sign whereby to know them,
namely, like a tree is known by its fruits. What
fruits have you seen on us, by which you could
judge that we are false prophets?” Inq. “Enough
everyday.” Jac. “Wherein?” Inq. “In this that
you have a false doctrine, which teaches men amiss,
and leads them into damnation.” Jac. “My lord,
that our doctrine is false, is merely your opinion;
nevertheless, you cannot know that we are false
prophets, except by the fruit of the works, by which
it may be known whether we are false prophets or
not; for Christ says: Ye shall know them by their
works (Matt. 7:16); but he does not say, by their
faith.” Inq. “You people justify yourselves by your
works.” Jac. “No; but it is impossible to gather
grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles, or that a corrupt
tree should bring forth good fruit, according to the
testimony of the Lord.” Inq. “Well, Jacques, as
I told you, I have not come here for the purpose
of disputing, but simply to learn your decision.”
Jac. “I do not wish to dispute either; but I want
to reply to you, that you unjustly accuse us of
heresy and deception.” Inq. “Well, let us dismiss
that; to what conclusion have you come in regard
to your confession? do you still hold to the views
which you confessed before the commissary?” Jac.
“Yes.” Inq. “Will you not then suffer yourself
to be instructed?” Jac. “I seek nothing else, but
always to follow that which is best, most righteous
and most virtuous, and I am not so obstinate in my
faith; if I would know a better way to eternal life,
than the one which I now have, I would accept it.”
Inq. “Well then, concerning baptism and the sacrament,
of which we spoke together, what do you
think in regard to it?” Jac. “Only that, my lord,
which shall be proven to me by the Scriptures; that
shall I believe, and nothing else.” Inq. “Then you
do not believe the holy teachers of the Catholic
church, do I hear no?” Jac. “I believe only the
holy Scriptures.” Inq. “This is the reason why
you are in heresy; that you think more of yourself
than of the holy teachers.” Jac. “I glory not, save
in the cross of Christ; but I will not trust in any
man; for it is written: ‘Cursed be the man that
trusteth in man.’ ” Jer. 17:5. Inq. “I know that;
but you do not believe the word of God either.”
Jac. “My lord, do not say this; for it is not so.”
Inq. “Not? if our Savior, taking the bread, says:
This is my body; and, taking the cup: This is
my blood; why then do you not yet believe him?
why do you doubt it?” Jac. “My lord, I believe
Christ’s words, and do not doubt them.” Inq. “Yes,
according to your own opinion, and with a different
meaning.” Jac. “My lord, I trust that I do not
understand it differently from what the apostles
understand it, even as Paul expounds it.” 1 Corinthians
10. Inq. “You say so.”

We had many more words yet about this article,
also about baptism, and a little afterwards about
purgatory, and the decree, in all for about an hour
and a half; whereupon he left me, showing me a
very nice and friendly countenance, whether it came
from the heart, I do not know.

On the 20th of January of said year, I was again
brought before the same inquisitor. He asked me:
“To what conclusion have you come in regard to
what I laid before you concerning baptism and the
sacrament, and what are your views in the matter?”
Jac. “I have nothing to tell you than that you have
already heard from me.” Inq. “Then, if I hear
right, you remain opinionated and obstinate?”
Jac. “My lord, I should be sorry to be obstinate
against my own conscience; but as you cannot
prove to me by the Scriptures that which you believe,
namely, that the baptism of infants is an ordinance
of God, and an apostolical practice, and also,
that the bread and the wine are changed into flesh
and blood, when the priest has pronounced the
words over the bread, this seems to me sorcery,
and I cannot understand it so.” Inq. “You may
not doubt that the change takes place through the
power of God, for I have sufficiently proven it to
you by the Scriptures of God; but you will not believe.”
Jac. “My lord, do not say so; for if you
had proven it to me by the Scriptures, I should
gladly believe it; for all my salvation lies in God’s
holy word.” Inq. “I have quoted to you the word
of God; but you believe nothing but your fanaticism
and opinion.” Jac. “My lord, I beg you not to
think this; if I knew better, or understood it differently,
I should not wish to resist the word of God
against my conscience, being in the state in which I
am, namely, imprisoned for my life, in daily expectation
of death; or it might well be said that I was
the most miserable and unfortunate man that ever
lived upon earth, that I should voluntarily and premeditatedly
seek pain and suffering here until death,
in order to obtain eternal damnation.” Inq. “Yes,
my child, take good heed what you do; for if you
die in this evil faith and doctrine you have, you are
damned to all the devils.” Jac. “O my lord, how
dare you speak so? It is written: ‘Judge not, that
ye be not judged; for with what judgment ye judge
(says the Lord), ye shall be judged.’ ” Matt. 7:1,2.
Inq. “I judge you according to truth.” Jac. “My
lord, do not say that; for you know not what you
judge.” Inq. “O yes, I do.” And taking up an
inkstand, which stood on the table, he said to me:
“As sure as I know that I hold this inkstand, so
assured am I, that if you continue in this doctrine,
and die thus, you will never see the face of God,
but will be eternally damned.” Jac. “My lord, do
not judge so; for you usurp God’s place, and rob
him of his honor; for judgment belongs unto him
alone.” Inq. “Do you think that I do not know
what I am saying? and that I do not see that you
are in error? no heretics shall enter into paradise.”
Jac. “My lord, you think that we are in error; but
as you people think of us, so we think of you.”
Inq. “O it is easy to know through the word of
God, who are in error and heresy.” Jac. “True,
it is easy to know for those to whom the Lord has
given the grace and wisdom. And for this reason I
beg you, my lord, not to take it amiss, if I speak
somewhat boldly with you, and open my heart to
579
you.” Inq. “No indeed.” Jac. “My lord, as you
people think that we are false prophets and deceivers,
so we think that you are; as you think that we
err, so we think that you err; as you think that we
deceive the people, so we think that you deceive
them, and upon this we forsake life and all that we
have in the world, to show to you people, and to
seal with our blood, the faith which we have in
God.” Inq. “Nevertheless, this only tends to your
damnation.” Jac. “If it tends to our damnation, we
are of all men under heaven the most miserable
(1 Cor. 15:19); for we are cast out, despised and
rejected as abominable before all the world (1 Corinthians
4:9), and flee from place to place, so that
we suffer continually in the flesh, and have no rest,
and, according to what you say, we are also to suffer
after this life: no, no, my lord, we feel quite a
different witness and promise through the word of
God.” Inq. “This arises from the fact that you
are deceived; but it will avail you nothing.”
Jac. “Where then is the people who must follow
their Master through suffering and affliction to eternal
life, as Christ has said that they should be hated
for his name’s sake.” Matt. 10:22. Inq. “This was
spoken to the apostles only.” Jac. “How comes it
then that Paul says that all that will live godly in
Christ Jesus, shall suffer persecution? 2 Tim. 3:12.
And the prophet says that the afflictions of the
righteous shall be many, but that the Lord delivers
them out of all evil.” Ps. 34:10. Inq. “This means
that the devil will always cause them enough temptation
and affliction.” Jac. “Paul speaks of persecution,
and not of temptation; nor can I conceive
that Christ spoke of temptation, when he said:
They will scourge you in their synagogues, and
persecute you unto death, and will think that they
do God service thereby; and ye shall be hated of
father and mother, brethren and friends, and some
of you they shall put to death.” Matt. 10:17,21;
John 16:2. Inq. “Well, this was spoken only to
the apostles.” Jac. “Does not Christ speak there of
all that believed in his name?” Inq. “He spoke
to the apostles only, who should suffer when
going about proclaiming the gospel; but that afterwards
they should cease to persecute them.”
Jac. “How came it that the churches suffered such
cruel persecution? and yet they were not all apostles.”
Inq. “How so?” Jac. “Even as Luke testifies,
Acts 17:13, and Paul 1 Thess. 2:14. Yea, you
yourself, my lord, know full well what Eusebius,
one of the ancient teachers, writes in the eighth
chapter of his fourth book. In writing of the primitive
church, in what suffering and contempt they
were, does he not say that the people regarded them
as robbers, murderers, infanticides, and abominable
men, and said that they committed incest with their
mothers and sisters, shed human blood in their
worship, and sacrificed their children unto idols;
they were also considered seditious persons, accursed
villians, and enemies of God and every creature,
and were charged with many other wickednesses
imputed to them by the world, is it not so,
my lord? as also the ancient writers Cyprian and
Tertullian write.” Inq. “It is so; this is all very
true; but it was done by those who had no knowledge
of the gospel.” Jac. “I indeed believe that if
they had believed the Gospel, they would not have
persecuted them, nor uttered such slanders against
them; but it has always been so, that even those
who boasted of having the word of God persecuted
them that sought to fear the Lord, and to serve God
with all their heart, even as you see in Israel, those
who ought to have confirmed the honor and law of
God, put to death the prophets that were sent to
them, and those who knew the Lord from a pure
heart.” Jer. 18:18. Inq. “For this reason the
wicked are always among the good, and the chaff
remains with the good grain to the end.”

We had much more conversation yet in regard
to this matter; finally he asked me my decision concerning
baptism and the sacrament, to which I replied
as I had done at other times. He then left
me, enjoining me to ask God to give me understanding
to return, as he said, to the holy Catholic
church.

On the 27th of January of the aforementioned
year I was again brought before the same inquisitor.
After a few words he asked me to what conclusion
I had come with regard to what he had said, namely,
with reference to baptism and the sacrament. Thereupon
I replied to him as I had done at other times,
that I knew nothing better than to adhere to my
first confession, seeing I could not find in the Scriptures
that which he laid before me, and which he
would constrain me to believe. Inq. “Will you
then remain obstinate herein, and not believe otherwise?”
Jac. “I am not obstinate, but I do not
find in the Scriptures that which you say I must believe.”
Inq. “Not? do you not find in the Scriptures
what you must believe concerning the sacrament?”
Jac. “Yes, but not in the manner in
which you believe; for I cannot understand it so.”
Inq. “The reason is you do not want to understand
it.” Jac. “How, my lord, do you mean that I want
to resist God against my conscience? in this case I
should be worse than an irrational beast.” Inq.
“Why then do you not understand it?” Jac. “Because
it is not given me to understand it differently;
and be not surprised at this, for it is written in the
prophets, where the Lord says: ‘They shall all be
taught of God.’ ” Is. 54:13. Inq. “Nevertheless,
it seems to me, that if I lay it before you with the
Scriptures, it is nothing but opinionativeness and obstinacy,
if you do not want to believe it.” Jac. “I
cannot understand it so; think not that if I understood
it differently, I should want to find my pleasure
and amusement here in being imprisoned and
chained day after day, having forsaken my wife and
family, to my great damage, expecting death from
day to day, for this were contrary to human nature.”
Inq. “Well then, believe only in the word of God
as it is written there, and I will be satisfied, namely,
that when we eat the bread, we partake of the body
of Christ, and when we drink the wine, we have part
in his blood, as Paul testifies to the Corinthians.”
1 Cor. 10:16. Jac. “Be satisfied then; I believe as
Paul testifies there.” Inq. “Do you believe then
that there is a communion of the body of Christ?”
Jac. “Yes.” Inq. “Well then, you cannot be a
partaker of the body without eating of it; hence you
580
must certainly say that it is the body of Christ which
you eat.” Jac. “Paul does not say this.” Inq.
“How can you be a partaker of the body without
eating of it?” Jac. “How did Israel become partakers
of the altar, who did not eat the altar, but
only the sacrifices?” 1 Cor. 10:18. Inq. “Ha ha!
see how Calvin or Zuinglius has instructed you.”
Jac. “I do not hold the doctrine of Calvin or Zuinglius.”
Inq. “Whose then, Menno Simon’s?”
Jac. “My doctrine and faith are not founded upon
men, but upon the word of God.” Inq. “Who
then is the head and captain of you people?” Jac.
“Christ.” Inq. “But who is it that instructs you
here upon earth, who is your teacher?” Jac. “The
word of God.”

When I perceived that he did not know to what
church I belonged, I did not want to tell or indicate
it to him.

Inq. “Nevertheless, you must be instructed herein
by some men.” Jac. “We are not founded upon
men, but upon the living Rock.” Inq. “Have
you then no pastor or bishop?” Jac. “Yes.” Inq.
“Who is it?” Jac. “Christ the Son of God.”
Inq. “You know very well what I mean; but you
do not want to answer; however, have you any adherents
of Calvin or Zuinglius? are you opposed to
Menno Simon?” Jac. “I believe that there is not
much difference between my faith and Menno Simon’s”
Inq. “Do you then believe like Menno,
that Christ did not assume our flesh in the virgin
Mary?” Jac. “My lord, you said that you would
not dispute about the matter; have you changed
your mind?” Inq. “Well then tell me simply what
you believe concerning it.” Jac. “I believe that he
is the Son of God in every respect, in flesh and
spirit; but as to whence he took his flesh, this I leave
in the mystery of God; the apostles did not dispute
concerning it.” Inq. “Yes, yes.” We had also
many other words yet, which I have not written
here.

On Monday, the 1st of February of the same year
1558, I was again brought before the same inquisitor.
After we had exchanged a few words, he asked
me. “Have you not prayed the Lord for wisdom?”
Jac. “Yes, and I need to pray to him daily.” Inq.
“How is your conscience at ease?” Jac. “Very
well; the Lord be praised for it.” Inq. “What are
your views concerning baptism and the sacrament,
about which we spoke?” Jac. “I hold the same
views which I clearly stated to you before.” Inq.
“Will you not believe differently?” Jac. “I would
believe differently, were it given me to understand
differently; but I will not speak as a hypocrite against
my heart and conscience; for it is written that the
Spirit of God fleeth all deceit.” Wis. 1:5. Inq.
“Then, as I perceive, you have come to a full determination
in regard to it.” Jac. “Yes, until I am
instructed differently. My lord, do you suppose
that these, namely, baptism and the sacrament, are
the only objectionable things to me in your church?”
Inq. “Well, what else is there objectionable to
you?” Jac. “Many of the ordinances and institutions
in your church, concerning which I do not
find a word in the holy Scriptures.” Inq. “Yet we
have no ordinance or institution, which I could not
prove to you by the Scriptures.” Jac. “Where is
the word mass recorded, or purgatory, or praying
for the dead?” Inq. “I will prove it to you,
namely, purgatory, and that we must pray for the
dead.” Jac. “Where is it written in the holy Scriptures?”
Inq. “Will you receive the books of the
Maccabees?” Jac. “Yes indeed, for apocryphical
books.” Inq. “What does apocryphical mean?”
Jac. “The ancients used this name, to indicate that
they are not authentic books, from which rules or
ordinances may be taken.” Inq. “It is true that the
doctors had some difficulty therein, but you may
therefore not reject them.” Jac. “Yes, my lord, the
reason why I will not receive them, is not only this,
that I will not trust in what men have said, but also
because I do not find that Christ or his apostles received
them, or quoted any testimony from them.”
Inq. “Yes, yes, where have you found that Christ
or his apostles quoted anything from the books
of the Kings?” Jac. “Enough.” Inq. “Where
then?” Jac. “My lord, in the first place it is written
in Matthew (12:1), that the Pharisees censured
Christ, because his disciples plucked the ears of corn
on the Sabbath. And Christ answered them: ‘Have
ye not read what David did when he was a-hungered
and they that were with him; how he entered into
the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which
was not lawful for him to eat?’ Hence I say, that
since Christ refers them to that which is written in
the books of the Kings, he thereby shows that he
receives them as authentic”277 Inq. “Well, do you
find anything in the book of Joshua?” Jac. “Yes,
my lord.” Inq. “What is that?” Jac. “My lord,
you well know that James in his epistle (2:25) adduces
a testimony or example from the book of
Joshua, namely, the second chapter, when he speaks
of Rahab the harlot, who was saved by her works
in faith.” Inq. “Then you will not receive the
books of the Maccabees, because Christ and his
apostles have not quoted any testimony from them?”
Jac. “No, and this for the reason, that they contain
a doctrine which is contrary to all Scripture, namely,
that of sacrificing and praying for the dead.” Deuteronomy
13:1. Inq. “If I would take the trouble,
I could prove all our ordinances with the Scriptures,
such as mass, confession, image worship, invocation
of the saints, and others.” Jac. “I think not, and
even if we were agreed, my lord, in every article, I
should yet not want to unite with you, unless you
should prove to me by the Scriptures that it is
Christian-like to shed innocent blood on account of
the faith, as you do.” Inq. “This is on account of
errors.” Jac. “And even though it were because
the Scriptures were understood amiss, yet I do not
find in the Scriptures, that we may put any one to
death on account of his faith.”

Inq. “O I can soon prove that heretics may be
put to death; for it is written that if any heretics or
false prophets should arise, they shall be put to
death.”

Jac. “Yes, I have read the 13th chapter of
Deuteronomy, where it is written that if a false
581
prophet, or other person among them, should arise
and teach them to go after other gods, which they
had not known, that false prophet should be put to
death, and stoned with stones.” Inq. “Well then,
see here a testimony that heretics may be put to
death.” Jac. “My lord, we are no more under the
law, but under the gospel; and even if we were under
the law, we would not teach you to go after
other gods, but after him who created heaven and
earth, and his Son Jesus Christ.” Inq. “You certainly
do it by your ordinances.” Jac. “The
Israelites were not all allowed to put any one to
death because of difference in the use of the ordinances,
since they believed in the same God: but all
this does not answer our purpose; for what was
commanded in the law is not commanded in the
gospel of Christ.” Inq. “Not, how so?” Jac.
“Because, my lord, in the law it was commanded,
Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, and to love one’s
neighbor, and to hate one’s enemy; but through
Christ we are commanded quite the contrary, not to
resist evil, and to love our enemies.” Matt. 5:38;
Lev. 24:20; 19:18. Inq. “True, but he did not
command that heretics should not be put to death.”
Jac. “What does Christ mean then, when he says
that we must not root up the tares which are among
the good grain, fearing that in rooting up the tares,
we might also pull up the wheat; wherefore he
commands, to let both grow until harvest; but the
harvest is not come yet.” Mat. 13:29, etc. Inq.
“You do not understand this very well; for it is
easy to see whether they are tares or wheat.” Jac
“Yes, for him that knows the seed.” Inq. “Yes,
that is true.” Jac. “My lord, it is written that carnal
men know only carnal things; but the things
that are spiritual knoweth no man, but the Spirit of
God.” 1 Cor. 2:11, etc. Inq. “This is very true.”
Jac. “For this reason, my lord, I should like to
ask you something.” Inq. “What is it?” Jac.
“Have you the Spirit of God, or has the council
received the Spirit of God?” Inq. “No, I will not
answer this.” Jac. “How then shall you or those
of the council be able to judge spiritual things? for
the matter of which we speak is spiritual, and must
be judged by the Spirit of God.” Inq. “You are
judged only because you have transgressed the decree
of the prince.” Jac. “If his command had not
been contrary to God’s command, I should not have
transgressed it.” Inq. “It is not contrary to the
command of God.” Jac. “I wish you would prove
to me by the Scriptures that the decree of the Emperor
or King is upright and just?”

Inq. “I believe you think that all our fathers were
deceived, and that your sect is saved. What will
you say? it is full twelve or thirteen hundred years
since Emperor Theodosius caused the proclamation
of an edict or mandate, to put to death the heretics,
namely, those who were then rebaptized, like your
sect.”

Jac. “Yes; my lord, you say that our sect has
existed only twenty or thirty years, but it has always
been the case that those who would live godly
in Christ Jesus, have had to suffer persecution, according
to the words of Paul.” Inq. “Thus speak
all heretics.” Jac. “Paul said it first; yet he was
not a heretic.” Inq. “I am well aware that he was
no heretic; but they all use the words of Paul; but I
tell you, decrees and mandates for the putting to
death of heretics are not a recent invention, but this
has obtained for fourteen hundred years already.”
Jac. “But it remains to be seen whether Emperor
Theodosius, of whom you spoke, did well, and a
good work according to the will of God, in issuing
such a mandate.” Inq. “Yes, he certainly did,
since he well knew that they were heretics.” Jac.
“My lord, in his opinion they were heretics: but in
the opinion of those who gave their lives for the
testimony of their faith, he himself was a heretic and
tyrant.” Inq. “How do you know that?” Jac.
“This is self-evident; for those who put us to death
for our faith, we esteem no better than heretics and
tyrants, as may easily be presumed that also they
did who were put to death by Emperor Theodosius.
Hence, this matter cannot be judged save by the
Spirit of God.” Inq. “No, no, you must not think
that so many learned doctors as were then in the
Catholic church, would have then permitted it, if it
had been wrong to put heretics to death.” Jac. “I
will not rely upon the ordinances or wisdom of men;
for I adhere to the instruction of Christ and his apostles,
who constantly admonish us to separate from
false prophets, and to shun heretics; but not to pursue
them, or to persecute them unto death.” Matthew
7:15; Tit. 3:10. Inq. “My son, do you know
why they did not put them to death?” Jac. “I
believe it was because it was not pleasing to God.”
Inq. “No, no, Jacques, it was because they were
not powerful enough, and had neither king, nor
prince, nor magistrate.” Jac. “Christ had power
enough to call to his aid more than twelve legions of
angels, and the apostles had power enough through
the Holy Spirit, but they were called to be a flock
of sheep and lambs, as harmless as doves, and so
changed as to be like little children.” Matthew
26:53; 10:16; John 10:27. Inq. “It is true, it was
so at that time.” Jac. “And shall now, my lord, the
children of God be of a different nature from what
they were then, shall they have the nature of
wolves?” Inq. “Certainly not; I do not say that.”
Jac. “Yet it appears to me, my lord, that those
who now boast of being children of God, have the
genuine nature of ravening wolves.”

He looked at me sharply and said to me: “Why
do you think so?” Jac. “Because, my lord, Christ
calls his people sheep and lambs; and it is the nature
of a flock of sheep, that if they see any beast approaching,
and perceive that it is a wolf, they all flee,
yea, though they were a thousand of them against
one wolf, and they do not pursue the wolf, to devour
him, and to shed his blood; but they who boast of
being the flock of Christ, do the very opposite;
whence do they get this nature?” Inq. “This comparison
is good for nothing, and the allegations are
useless: for it does not obtain with the flock of
Christ, as with a flock of sheep.”

Seeing that he rejected this, I asked him: “Is it
not necessary that the children of God should be
born of God, as John testifies? (John 1:13) and
must they not be of such a nature and disposition
as their Father and Lord?” Inq. “Yes, but why?”
582
Jac. “Because it is written that the Son of God was
led as a lamb or sheep to the slaughter, and opened
not his mouth; hence his children must be of
such a nature, since they are born of God.” Isaiah
53:7; Luke 8:32. Inq. “This! it had to come so.”
Jac. “Why?” Inq. “That the Scriptures might
be fulfilled.” Jac. “Thus it must also be with regard
to his children, in order that the Scripture may be
fulfilled.” Inq. “What Scripture?” Jac. “This:
‘If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute
you; remember the word that I said unto
you, the servant is not greater than his lord.’ ”
Inq. “This he said to his apostles.” Jac. “I understand
it as having been spoken by him of all his
children, and as having been written for our instruction.”
Inq. “No, no, my son; you must understand
that the apostles were sent to proclaim and
preach the gospel to every creature, and the Lord
predicted that much suffering should come upon
them, and that they should be put to death; but
after they had gained a prince to the faith, they had
rest, and might well put to death the heretics in
their country.” Jac. “My lord, the Scriptures do
not say this, nor can I conceive that it can be the
nature of a lamb, to kill and devour a wolf; for you
people say that you are the flock of Christ, and that
we are ravening wolves, and you put us to death;
this does not seem right to me.”

Thereupon he laughingly asked me: “Jacques,
was not Peter also a sheep of Christ?” Jac. “My
lord, if he was chosen of God, he also belonged to
the flock.” Matt. 10:1. Inq. “Answer, yes or no.”
Jac. “I believe that he was not only a sheep of the
flock of Christ, but even a shepherd.” Inq. “Well
then, he, who was a sheep, killed two persons.”
Jac. “Whom?” Inq. “Ananias and his wife Sapphira.”
Jac. “How did he kill them, seeing he had
neither stick nor sword? was it not the Spirit of
the Lord?” Inq. “Nevertheless, he did it.” Jac.
“My lord, do not give the glory to men, as though
they could do this by their own power; for they
were killed through the Spirit of the Lord: moreover,
it was not for such a cause as that for which
you put people to death: but it was because they
lied against the Holy Ghost.” Acts 3:12; 5:3. Inq.
“Well, Jacques, my son, this brings us no further;
see that you consider the matter well, reform, and
become converted to the faith of your fathers, for
you are in error; hence believe as a good Christian
is bound to believe, and do not attempt so many
things.” Jac. “Faith is the gift of God, says Paul.”
Eph. 2:8; Rom. 12:3; 1 Cor. 12:9. Inq. “Yes,
it is truly the gift of God.” Jac. “Hence men cannot
give it.” Inq. “Certainly not; we must pray
to God for it.” Jac. “How comes it then, that they
want to compel me to believe, by threats of death?”
Inq. “Time is given you, to become converted.”
Jac. “My lord, how much time? six, seven, or eight
days, as I have seen in Brabant; can one change his
faith so speedily?” Inq. “I know nothing about
Brabant, but here we give people six weeks at least,
to see whether they will believe, when the word of
God has been presented to them.” Jac. “Why do
you say, my lord, if they will believe it? You talk
as though they could believe of their own accord,
and yet you say that faith is the gift of God. The
apostles had heard the Lord Jesus, who was full of
wisdom and truth, for two or three years, and yet
they could not comprehend well, as you may gather
from the two disciples who went to Emmaus. Luke
24:13. Paul also had heard the apostles and disciples;
yet he could not comprehend, but cast them
into prison. Acts 9:1. But when it pleased God,
he made manifest his will to them, at the time which
he had prepared, and not at any man-appointed
time.” Inq. “That was because they had not yet
this doctrine, and as it was in the beginning, they
could not comprehend it.” Jac. “It was because
it was not given them, or because they were not
drawn by the Father (John 6:44). Why do you
not also wait until God does his will with us?” Inq.
“You have heard for a long time, and time is still
given you for consideration; you have three weeks
yet from this day, to consider the matter.” Jac.
“My lord, do you not mean that after three weeks
I shall be put to death?” Inq. “You may turn yet
in the meantime.” Jac. “But if it be not given me,
to understand differently, and I cannot comprehend
otherwise, how shall I turn?” Inq. “For this reason
time is given you, in order to see whether God
will not show you mercy that you may become converted.”
Jac. “My lord, I have in mind just now
the children of Israel, who were besieged in the city
of Bethulia, and suffered from scarcity of water, so
that their wives and children died for thirst, and
they said: There is no hope from God for us any
more; let us deliver the city into the hands of the
enemies. Judith 7:23, etc. Thus you people also
say: There is no more hope that he will turn; let us
deliver him to death. And as Ozias, the ruler of the
city, thinking to give good counsel, said to the inhabitants:
Let us yet wait five days, and if within
these five days there come no help from the Lord,
we will deliver the city to our enemies. My lord,
were they not sharply rebuked by a widow named
Judith, who said to them: Who are ye that have
tempted God this day, and stand instead of God
among the children of men, and would comprehend
his purpose,” etc. Judith 8:12, etc. Inq. “This
cannot be compared to your case.” Jac. “My lord,
it appears to me to be the same thing; for you people
say that if no help comes from God within the
time appointed us by you, we must be delivered
to death, and according to what you say, we are
damned to all the devils.” Inq. “Jacques, there is
no doubt about it.” Jac. “But how do you expect,
my lord, to escape God’s judgment, since you thus
send us away to damnation? why do you not leave
us in the hand of God until the end? for as long
as we live here, hope may always be entertained of
reformation, seeing you think that we are damned;
but after death there is no longer any hope.” Inq.
“I do not drive you to damnation; for I am not
the one that judges you; nor will I be guilty of
your death.”

Jac. “My lord, when Susanna was unjustly condemned
to death, who bore the punishment, the
judges, or the witnesses?”

Inq. “They that were guilty.”

583

Jac. “My lord, the judges were rebuked by Daniel;
but the witnesses were rebuked and punished.” Inq.
“Do you think that I am witness in your case? I
have come here simply to instruct you.” Jac. “My
lord, yet I regard you as the principal witness; for
upon your testimony will the judges sentence me
to death, or release me, since for this purpose you
have been sent here, and appointed by the King.”
Inq. “I do not wish them to condemn you upon
my testimony; nor do I want to judge.” Jac. “My
lord, when the judges will ask you in regard to me,
what will you answer? will you not say that I am
a heretic, and have deserved death?” Inq. “No.”
Jac. “My lord, I pray you, what will you say?”
Inq. “That you are deceived, and seduced from the
right way.” Jac. “To be seduced, to err, or to
be a heretic, my lord, appears to me to be all the
same thing.” Inq. “Well, my son, think not that
I have come here to condemn you to death; for you
will be sentenced only upon the confession which
you made before the commissary; for, as regards
myself, I do not wish them to sentence you upon
my word, nor would I have anything to do with it.”
Jac. “My lord, I have not followed my business so
long, and sat in the council for seven or eight years,
so that I should not know what this amounts to;
but the reason why I tell you this, is to warn you
not to stain your hands with my blood; for I well
know for what purpose you have been sent here.”
He now arose, and went away. The words just related
we frequently had together afterwards.

On Monday, the 7th of February, 1558. I was
again summoned before the same inquisitor. When
I appeared before him, he saluted me, and asked:
“How are you; have you the fever yet?” Jac. “I
am well, the Lord be praised for it; the fever left
me three weeks ago, or thereabouts.” Inq. “How
are you at ease in your conscience?” Jac. “Very
well, the Lord be praised for it.”

He then made a long speech, too long to be
briefly related, the sum and substance of which was,
that he entreated me very much, that I should return
to the holy Catholic church, and believe as
becomes a good Christian, without investigating
such high things, and wanting to be so wise. Thereupon
I replied: “I investigate nothing but what I
am permitted to believe; and I am well content,
simply to believe that which a good Christian is
bound to believe.” Sir. 3:21. Inq. “You indeed
say that you want to believe as a good Christian,
and yet you have a heretical faith.” Jac. “I have
no such faith; but my faith is founded only upon
the pure word of God; and if you were content with
the word of God, you would also be satisfied with
my faith.” Inq. “True, you quote the word of
God; but in your heart you understand differently.”
Jac. “As we believe, so speak we; and since we adduce
to you the Scriptures, which are the word of
God, for a testimony of our faith, why are you not;
satisfied with it? for it belongs to God alone, and
not to men to search the heart.” Inq. “What then
do you believe concerning Jesus Christ; whence
did he take his flesh?” Jac. “Do the Scriptures
teach you that you must ask me this?” Inq. “Because
Menno says that he brought his flesh from
heaven.” Jac. “I have not heard him say this.”
Inq. “Yet he believes it.” Jac. “Menno’s belief is
that the Word was made flesh, according to the
testimony of John 1:14, or as the text in your Testament
reads: became flesh.” Inq. “What do you
believe concerning it?” Jac. “I believe that Christ
is the Son of the living God.” Inq. “Whence did
he take his flesh?” Jac. “I do not know, except
that he is born of the Father.” Inq. “Do you not
believe that he took his flesh in the womb of the
virgin Mary?” Jac. “My lord, if you can prove to
me that Jesus and his apostles compelled any one to
confess this, I will also confess it to you; for when
Peter confessed Christ, that he was the Son of the
living God, Christ did not ask him, of whom he
was made, but said that upon this rock he should
build his church. Matt. 16:18. Again, when Candace’s
eunuch said to Philip, that he believed that
Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and desired to be
baptized upon this faith, Philip was satisfied, without
inquiring as to whence he had taken his flesh.”
Acts 8:36. Inq. “It was not necessary at that time
to make such inquiry, since no difficulty existed yet
concerning the matter.” Jac. “What need is there
now?” Inq. “Because there are so many heretics.”
Jac. “There were enough heretics also in the days
of the apostles; but the reason is this, that Satan
always causes some vain controversy, to corrupt
men’s understanding, and to draw them into error.”
Inq. “Then you will not confess that he took his
flesh and blood in the virgin?” Jac. “I will not
investigate that which is above my understanding,
namely, whereof the Son of God was made; for this
was a miraculous work. However, that you may
not think me a heretic, I confess him to be the Son
of God in every manner, in power and might, in
spirit, in flesh and blood, begotten of the own substance
of one only Father, namely, the eternal God,
as the Scriptures testify to us; who was with the
Father from eternity; and when the time of the
promise was fulfilled, the eternal Word became
flesh, and was conceived in a virgin, of the Holy
Ghost, and born of said virgin Mary.” Inq. “He
assumed his flesh from, and was made of, our flesh;
will you say nothing with regard to this?” Jac. “I
am satisfied with believing in regard to it according
to the Scriptures, without further investigation.”
Inq. “Do not the Scriptures say that he took upon
him our flesh?” Jac. “I have never read it, and I
do not wish to dispute further; besides, you said
that you would not dispute about it; why then do
you ask me so much concerning it?” Inq. “In
order to see whether your faith is not like the faith
of Menno Simon.” Jac. “You have heard that I do
not receive the testimony of men, as a foundation
for my faith.”

Perceiving that he could get nothing else out of
me, he asked me: “What is your determination?”
Jac. “I have declared my faith to you, and thereupon
I have made my determination, until the contrary
be proven to me.” Inq. “I have proven it to
you sufficiently; but you will believe nothing but
your fancy and obstinacy, and have forsaken the
holy church.” Jac. “My lord, I have not forsaken
the holy church; for if I had recognized your
584
church as the holy church, I should not have forsaken
it, to join another.” Inq. “Nevertheless,
though Satan has thus deceived you, and you think
that we are not the holy church, yet it is the same
that it has always been from the times of the apostles,
and been maintained through the holy teachers
until the present time.” Jac. “If it is the same
church which existed at the time of the apostles, it
must have the same or like bishops and pastors
as were then.” Inq. “Yes, and so we have.”
Jac. “Well then, my lord, show me in your whole
church only one bishop or pastor who is blameless
in doctrine and life, even as Paul, or Timothy, or
Titus, and I will follow him with all my heart.”
Inq. “Have you such pastors among you?” Jac.
“My lord, you say that we are Satan’s congregation,
and that your church is the same which was
in the time of the apostles; hence show me those
people, whereby I may know them.” Inq. “Where
do you think to find such? for they had the Holy
Ghost, who is not given now.” Jac. “Not! How
comes it then, that Paul says that he that has not
the Spirit of God, is none of his?” Rom. 8:9.
Inq. “This has another meaning.” Jac. “My lord,
what meaning?” Inq. “He there speaks of those
who do not walk after the Spirit.” Jac. “Well, for
what else do I ask you, than for bishops and pastors
who walk and are led by the Spirit of God,
who are holy, just, vigilant, and blameless in the
doctrine, in life and conversation, as Paul teaches
that they must be.” Inq. “I could easily name;
such bishops or pastors as are blameless, but you
do not know them.” Jac. “Where are they?”
Inq. “In Italy and in Spain.” Jac. “Is the church
of God there, and not here?” Inq. “There is also
a cardinal or bishop in England, who truly is a man
blameless in doctrine and conversation.” Jac. “My
lord, pray release me from these chains, and let me
go, and I shall use all diligence to get to him, to
see whether it is true.”

He laughingly replied: “No, no; you must believe
what is told you.” Jac. “My lord, it is written:
Cursed be the man that trusteth in man. Jer. 17:5.
Shall I depend upon your word alone?” Inq. “Do
you think that I lie?” Jac. “I do not say that: but
I want to see it first before I believe it.” Inq. “Yes,
yes, but you cannot now.” Jac. “Since I cannot
see it, I cannot believe it either.” Inq. “Why will
you pay so much attention to their conversation,
seeing they have the doctrine of the apostles?”
Jac. “This is yet to be proven to me, and it would
be difficult for you to prove to me by the Scriptures,
that they have the doctrine of the apostles.”
Inq. “Nevertheless they have it; but you are hardened,
and cannot comprehend it.” Jac. “This assertion
lacks the support of the Scriptures, and if
they are trees from the roots of the apostles, show
me the fruits, that I may know them.” Inq. “Can
you then know the faith by the works, whether it is
good or bad.” Jac. “My lord, our Master has
taught us that we shall know the false prophets by
their fruits (Matt. 7:16); for when we find grapes
on the vine, we dare not say, like you people do,
that we have plucked them from thorns.”

He laughingly said to me: “Do we say that?”
Jac. “Do you not? do you not say we are evil, vile
and useless trees, that must be cast into the fire?
And yet you have confessed to me, that our fruits
are good, but that it is our faith.” Inq. “It is
true, you do good works before men; but the inward
is good for nothing, for your faith is not
good.” Jac. “Our works spring from our faith;
the vessel cannot give forth anything but what is in
it; hence the Lord calls those a generation of vipers,
who confessed that the fruit was good, and the tree
corrupt, saying: ‘Either make the tree good, and
his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and
his fruit corrupt.’ Luke 6:45; Matt. 12:34. Inq.
“Therefore you would say that our bishops and
pastors can have no good faith, unless their works
are good.” Jac. “My lord, I can answer with Paul:
‘They profess that they know God; but in works
they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient,
and unto every good work reprobate’ (Tit. 1:16);
and such pastors I will not follow.” Inq. “No, no,
Jacques, they are not so abominable as you think,
though they are also sinners, even as we all are.”
Jac. “My lord, you know better than you say; for
I should be ashamed to discover the shameful acts
of this people, who boast of being the light and salt
of the earth, and the leaders of the blind and ignorant.”
Inq. “What shameful acts? tell me freely.”
Jac. “My lord, since you desire me to tell you, you
know very well yourself, what unnatural whoredom,
too shameful to mention, such as was committed by
Sodom and Gomorrah, those of Rome commit,
namely, the Pope, who boasts of being a holy man,
and God upon earth, and the cardinals and bishops
that are there; to say nothing of the pride, pomp
and wickedness of which these holy people are
guilty.” Inq. “It is true, that there are some who
commit great abomination before God, so that it is
abominable of some; but, Jacques, we must not condemn
the good on account of the bad; they are not
all bad; there are also some that are righteous.”
Jac. “I believe that the righteous are thinly sown;
for from my youth I have lived mostly among
priests, canons and monks, and it were a shame to
relate the abounding wickedness which I have seen
there.” Inq. “My son, not all, not all.” Jac. “My
lord, so far as I have ever seen and known, I do
not know that I have seen a single one walk after
the rule prescribed to a bishop or pastor, even as
you know better yourself what occurred two or
three weeks ago in this city of N. in the convent
of the Jacobines.”

The monks or Jacobines had driven their prior
out of the convent, because he had reproved them
for their licentiousness and wickedness.

Inq. “Jacques, though there have been wicked
popes, cardinals, bishops, priests, and monks, there
have, on the other hand, also been good ones; do
you not know that the good grain is not without
chaff? No, no, there are good grains and good pastors,
though you do not know them.” Jac. “Show
me then but a single upright pastor, such as I demanded
of you, according to the Scriptures, and I
will follow him.” Inq. “Though I should name
them to you, you do not know them any way, and
585
will not believe me; but even if it were true, namely,
that they are wicked, yet they have the true faith.”
Jac. “I hold to the testimony of Paul, that light
has no communion with darkness.” 2 Cor. 6:14.
Inq. “Do you mean to say then, that a man who
commits evil works cannot have the true faith?”
Jac. “If a man that has received knowledge, yield
himself to the commission of wickedness, his faith
will not last long, or will soon be darkened.”
Inq. “Who has told you this?” Jac. “Paul writes
to the Romans, that some held the truth in unrighteousness,
since that which might be known
of God, God had showed them; and though they
knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither
were thankful; wherefore God gave them up to the
lusts of their hearts, filled with darkness.” Romans
1:18. Inq. “Paul speaks there of the philosophers,
who turned to the heavens, stars, planets, etc., for
guidance.” Jac. “That is all the same to me, of
whom he speaks, philosophers or others; but Paul
shows that through their works and ingratitude
their hearts were filled with darkness. Moreover, he
also says: ‘Because they received not the love of
the truth, that they might be saved, . . . for this
cause God shall send them strong delusion;’ which
also came to pass.” 2 Thess. 2:10,11. Inq. “Did
not Judas Iscariot commit a wicked work in delivering
up the Son of God?” Jac. “The Scripture
says that it would have been better, if he had not
been born.” Matt. 26:24. Inq. “Yet he had a true
faith; what do you say to this?” Jac. “Had he a
true faith before or afterwards?” Inq. “Before
and also afterwards, though he was a thief.” Jac.
“Though his heart was wicked, yet his walk was
good, so that they did not dare think that it was
he who should commit the deed, but all asked: ‘Is it
I? is it I?’ ” Mark 14:19. Inq. “Look also at Demas,
did he not have the true faith? Yet his heart
was bound up in things of this world; nevertheless,
Paul regarded him as a brother.” Col. 4:14. Jac.
“It is true that Paul regarded him for a time as a
brother and companion in the work of the Lord;
but after he said that Demas had forsaken him,
having loved this present world, and no longer calls
him a brother or companion.” 2 Tim. 4:10. Inq.
“That you do not know.” Jac. “The Scriptures
say nothing about it.” Inq. “That proves nothing
either way; you must believe that a sinful man can
have the faith and the Gospel; do you think that we
must therefore not hear him, and believe his word?”
Jac. “My lord, wherein do you reprove Paul of sin,
after he had received the knowledge of the truth?”
Inq. “Is it not written: ‘He that saith that he hath
no sin, maketh God a liar?’ ” 1 John 1:10. Jac.
“True, but it is also written in the same epistle:
‘Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin
because he is born of God.’ 1 John 3:9. And Paul
said: ‘How shall we, that are dead to sin, live unto
sin’ ” Rom. 6:2. Inq. “Paul there simply asks a
question; but do you therefore think that he did
not sin?” Jac. “You know that Paul said that
Christ was living in him; did Christ then commit
sin? Gal. 2:20. He also exhorts the Corinthians,
to follow him, even as he had followed Christ, and
calls God and men to witnesses, how holily and
justly, and unblamably he had walked among them,
1 Cor. 11:1; 1 Thess. 2:10. Of what sin then, my
lord, will you accuse Paul?” Inq. “Nevertheless,
he was a sinner; this you certainly cannot deny.”
Jac. “I do not want to deny it; for he says himself,
that he was the chief of sinners, blasphemers
and persecutors while in unbelief, but not after he
had received the knowledge [of the truth]. 1 Timothy
1:15. Well then; but what I ask you for, are
pastors that are blameless in life, doctrine and conversation;
for I well know that all men are born in
sin; but he that abideth in sin, hath not known
God.” Ps. 51:5; 1 John 3:6. Inq. “You must not
thus understand the passage; for a sinful man does
have knowledge of God.” Jac. “Yes, with the
mouth, or it would not be true what the apostle
Peter has said, that he that has not the fear of God,
and brotherly and living love, is blind, and gropes
with the hand for the way. Tit. 1:16; 2 Pet. 1:9.
Inq. “No, he says that he is like the blind.” Jac.
“My lord, with your permission, he says that such
a blind man gropes for the way, which is a sign that
he has not found it; now, shall I follow such people?”
Inq. “Your Menno, is he so just, holy and
blameless?” Jac. “I have not had sufficient intercourse
with him, to find anything blamable in
him.” Inq. “With whom then have you had your
intercourse? can nothing be said of your teacher? is
he unblamable?” Jac. “My lord, can you produce
anything against him, or accuse him of anything?”
Inq. “I do not know the rascal.” Jac.
“Then do not defame him; for you would find it a
difficult task to prove that he is what you call him.”
Inq. “This would not be difficult for me to do;
for he has seduced enough people to be called
this.” Jac. “My lord, take care that you are not
yourself one who seduces the people.” Inq. “Is he
not a native of a certain village in Zealand?” He
named the village, but I have forgotten it. Jac. “I
do not know where he was born.” Inq. “What
kind of a looking man was he? what sort of beard
and clothes did he have?” Jac. “My lord, you are
certainly inquiring very diligently for him; I think
you would like to betray him; do you know no
other way, my lord?” Inq. “I wish him no harm.”
Jac. “I hear that you say so; nevertheless, you
would like to have him here in my place, would
you not, my lord?” Inq. “Yes, if he would become
converted.” Jac. “And if he would not be
converted to your views, would you not place him
to the stake?” Inq. “I should leave this to the
Judge.” Jac. “Well, would you not then wish him
harm? would you want to have this done to you?”

Perceiving that he could not answer me, and that
two or three persons were listening at the door, besides
the jailer, who is always with the prisoners, he
commenced to give me a long talk, saying that I
must not inquire so deeply into the Scriptures, but
suffer myself to be instructed by those more learned
than I, and that I must believe that a sinful man, of
wicked life could have the faith as well as another,
and that I must hear his words, but not do after his
works. Jac. “Must I believe this by the Scriptures,
or without the Scriptures?” Inq. “I have proven
586
it to you by the Scriptures.” Jac. “By what Scriptures?”
Inq. “By the cases of Judas and Demas,
who had faith, and yet were wicked of life.” Jac.
“My lord, it appears to me that our words are mere
child’s play; have I not replied to this, and proven
to you, that it becomes us not to take those who
have apostatized from the faith for leaders and
pastors?” Inq. “Where do you expect to find
blameless pastors such as you demand? do you not
see that the world is full of knavery?” Jac. “If you
do not know any, I know some, and such I will
follow.” Inq. “Where are they?” Jac. “They are
unknown to you; do you not know that when the
prophet thought that all the righteous in Israel had
been slain by Ahab and Jezebel, the Lord said that
there were seven thousand left yet, who had not
bowed their knees unto the idol Baal.” 1 Kings
19:10. Inq. “It was because of the persecution raging
at that time, that they were so scattered.” Jac.
“Thus it is yet at the present day on account of
persecution, that they are scattered, and unknown
to the world. Inq. “But must you for a Menno, or
any other single individual, who seem to lead a good
life, must you therefore follow him, and forsake all
the other bishops and pastors, who do not walk just
as uprightly?” Jac. “My lord, do you think that
if Ahab, the King of Israel had forsaken the counsel
of the four hundred prophets, and followed the
single advice of poor Micaiah, he would have done
amiss?” Inq. “Certainly not; for Micaiah was a
prophet of God.” Jac. “Did not the others say
that they were too? and did they not smite poor
Micaiah on the cheek, because he prophesied against
them, and say to him: ‘Do you think that the
Spirit of God has departed from us?’ ” Inq. “They
boasted of the Holy Spirit, but falsely; for they did
not have him?” Jac. “Ahab did not know that; for
because Micaiah had alone prophesied against the
four hundred prophets, the poor man of God was
cast into prison on scanty bread and water, till Ahab
should return from the battle at Ramoth-gilead; but
he found that the counsel of the four hundred prophets
cost him his life, as Micaiah had foretold him.”
Inq. “The events recorded in these passages occurred
in former times.” Jac. “Paul says that all
was written for our learning; and the same things
still happen at the present day.” Rom, 15:4. Inq.
“Well then, then you will not hear or follow any
pastors, except they practice what they teach?”
Jac. “No; for it is written: ‘The light of the body
is the eye; if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall
be full of darkness.’ ” Matt. 6:22. Inq. “Then you
will not follow the advice of Jesus Christ, namely,
to do after their words, and not after their works.”
Jac. “To whom does he say this?” Inq. “To his
disciples.” Jac. “Of whom does he say it?” Inq.
“Jesus Christ says: ‘The scribes and the Pharisees
sit on Moses’ seat: all therefore whatsoever they bid
you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye
after their works.’ ” Matt. 23:1,2. Jac. “What
kind of a seat was it, wooden or stone?” Inq. “It
was the seat that was there.” Jac. “How could so
many people sit in one seat? was it so large? or was
it not the law Christ alluded to?” Inq. “It is the
same thing, the law which they proclaimed.” Jac.
“The law was a command of God, and not of men,
and when Christ said this, he did not choose them
to feed or lead his flock.” Inq. “When he said:
Do after their words, and not after their works, did
he not appoint them pastors?” Jac. “Have you not
read what the Lord says: ‘Except your righteousness
shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes
and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the
kingdom of heaven.’ Matt. 5:20. Behold, here they
are already excluded; how then shall they lead
others?” Inq. “Do only after their words.” Jac.
“Have you no other pastors among you, to proclaim
the word of God, than such scribes and Pharisees,
whom God has threatened with so many
curses? Does not the prophet say: Blessed is the
man that has not sat among the ungodly? Ps. 1:1.
And Christ admonishes us to beware of their leaven.”
Matt. 16:6. Inq. “You must not understand it
thus, but believe that an ungodly man can indeed
speak good things.” Jac. “It is written: ‘Praise is
not seemly in the mouth of the ungodly, because
they are not sent of God.’ Sir. 15:9. ‘And how
shall they preach, except they be sent?’ ” Romans
10:15. Inq. “It is true, it is not seemly, but he
does not say that it is not good.” Jac. “If it is not
seemly, then it is not acceptable; for what repentance
can an impenitent man proclaim? For, if a
thief admonish his companion not to steal any more,
will his word have any effect? will not his companion
say: If it is wrong to do it, why do you do it
yourself. Rom. 2:21. Ye hypocrites, cast out the
beam out of your own eyes, and then shall you see
clearly the dust in my eyes.” Matt. 7:5. Inq. “You
pervert every Scripture into the contrary, according
to your own notion and understanding; you must not
build upon yourself so much, but subject your understanding
to the understanding of those that are
wiser than you are.” Jac. “My lord, I always
speak, with your permission, that if anything better
is proven to me, I will follow it.”

He arose and said: “It is time for me to go; see
that you consider the matter well, and pray diligently
to God.” Jac. “I know of nothing to consider,
since you cannot prove to me anything different.”
Inq. “What should I prove to you?” Jac.
“I have asked you to show to me what pastors I
must follow, and whether they are such as the
Scriptures decree that they ought to be in life, doctrine
and conversation.” Inq. “Follow those whom
your parents followed.” Thereupon he left me.

Here I finished writing, because I was finally surprised
by many persons and gainsayers.

This confession of Jacques was translated from the
French into the Dutch.

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’
sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute
you, and shall say all manner of evil against
you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding
glad; for great is your reward in heaven; for so
persecuted they the prophets which were before
you. Matt. 5:11,12.

587





---

Page: http://history.truechristian.church/stories/mm-confession-of-jacques-dauchy-made-before-the-commissary-and-the-inquisitor/

[Contribute a correction or addition](https://github.com/trueChristian/history.truechristian.church/issues/new?title=Correction%3A+Confession+Of+Jacques+D%E2%80%99Auchy%2C+Made+Before+The+Commissary+And+The+Inquisitor.&body=%23%23+Page+or+topic%0AConfession+Of+Jacques+D%E2%80%99Auchy%2C+Made+Before+The+Commissary+And+The+Inquisitor.%0A%0APage%3A+http%3A%2F%2Fhistory.truechristian.church%2Fstories%2Fmm-confession-of-jacques-dauchy-made-before-the-commissary-and-the-inquisitor%2F%0A%0ARecord%3A+mm-confession-of-jacques-dauchy-made-before-the-commissary-and-the-inquisitor%0A%0ADate+currently+shown%3A+16th+century+%28source+section%29%0A%0A%23%23+Correction+or+addition%0A%0A%0A%0A%23%23+Sources+and+evidence%0APlease+include+book%2Fpage+references%2C+archive+links%2C+or+first-hand+documentation.%0A%0A%0A%0A%23%23+Image+credit+%28if+applicable%29%0ACreator%2C+source%2C+and+permission+or+public-domain+basis.%0A%0A%0A%0ASubmitted+for+review%3B+this+issue+does+not+publish+changes+automatically.)