# Disputation Between Herman Vleckwijk, Imprisoned By The Lords Of The Country Van Den Vrye In Bruges, And Friar Cornelis, In The Presence Of Mr. Jan Van Dam, On The 1oth Of May, A. D. 1569.

1569 · Historical source

Source: Martyrs’ Mirror. Original heading: DISPUTATION BETWEEN HERMAN VLECKWIJK, IMPRISONED BY THE LORDS OF THE COUNTRY VAN DEN VRYE IN BRUGES, AND FRIAR CORNELIS, IN THE PRESENCE OF MR. JAN VAN DAM, ON THE 1OTH OF MAY, A. D. 1569.

Source heading; not independently verified

Fr. Corn. I would say, Good-day, Herman: but
I am quite wrought up and angry yet from yesterday,
at your accursed hedge-preacher, or teacher,
who has so wickedly seduced, deceived, crazed, bedeviled
and bewitched you and your fellow Anabaptists
by his damnable, hellish, Anabaptistic heresies,
out there in the miserable Gruthuysbosch.
Hence I must now come here and try whether I can
draw you away again from this Anabaptism, and
convert you to our Catholic Christian faith; have
you a mind for it, or not? Let us hear now.

Herm. To judge from your speaking, I should
think that you are angry, and if you had not told
me yourself, I would have thought, that you wanted
to frighten me. But why are you so angry at that
friendly, pleasant man, who I think did not give
you one hard word?

Fr. Corn. He nevertheless called me a papist
once or twice; but I do not care * * * for that; but
I am very angry that he would in no wise suffer
himself to be converted from his accursed Anabaptism
and all other accursed heresies, in regard to
which I have spent so much labor in vain; and the
most vexatious of all is, that though I so well
showed, and convinced him of, his bad, evil, wicked,
false, heretical faith, as these good lords have well
heard, it was all of no avail; ill betide him.

Herm. I think, that he nevertheless clearly
showed you with the holy Scriptures, that his faith
is in Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God; whereby
then could you show him, that his faith is bad,
evil, wicked, false, and heretical, as you say?

Fr. Corn. Fie, alas! I already hear by this answer,
that I shall win no laurels in the way of converting
you. But in good faith, do you people think
it enough, only to believe in Jesus Christ? Ah,
bah, all the devils of hell believe in Jesus Christ;
bah, see here now, what we are tormented with.
Bah, you ought to, and must also, on pain of the
damnation of your soul, believe in all the other articles
of the Christian faith, and the excellent, holy
institutions of our mother the holy Roman Church,
which by our holy fathers, the popes, have in all
general holy councils, been ordained and decreed to
be believed and observed. But you Anabaptists
neither believe nor observe anything of them, except
752
it be very plainly stated in the holy Scriptures;
for if there are any matters contained in the Scriptures,
that seem somewhat obscure to you, you will
by no means believe them; as, for instance, all that
is contained in the holy Scriptures concerning
prayer for the refreshing and deliverance of the souls
in purgatory; nor all that is said in them respecting
the seven sacraments; nor all that they say concerning
priestly authority; nor all that is found in them
regarding the transubstantiation, or change, of the
bread and wine into the real flesh and blood of Jesus
Christ, in the Sacrament of the altar; nor all that
they contain concerning the perpetual virginity and
purity of Mary, the blessed mother of God. No,
these and very many other holy articles you will
not believe; yea, what is still more abominable, the
worthy blessed mother of God, whom you ought
and are in duty bound to honor, serve, invoke, and
entreat, that she would intercede for you with her
dear Son, her you Anabaptists do not esteem better
than your filthy, * * * sinful wives. And in like
manner you despise and reject all the holy saints
and saintesses whom you ought to honor, fast to
them, celebrate, invoke, and entreat, that they
would stand as advocates or mediators between God
and you, and intercede for you; bah! is this not a
fine thing? Bah, you are silent: answer me, why
you heretics bear such enmity and hatred to the
worthy, blessed mother of God, and to all God’s
saints; let us hear now.

Herm. That we should hate Mary the mother of
Jesus Christ, and the saints of God, this be far from
us; but that we do not invoke and entreat them that
they should stand as advocates or mediators between
God and us, this is because John, in the second chapter
of his first epistle says: “If any man sin, we
have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ
the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins:
and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the
whole world.” In like manner, Paul writes to Timothy,
in the second chapter of his first epistle:
“There is one God, and one mediator between God
and man, the man Christ Jesus: who gave himself
a ransom for all.” In the same manner he also
writes to the Hebrews, in the ninth chapter. But we
do not hate our enemies; how then should we hate
God’s saints, our fellow brethren and sisters in the
Lord?

Fr. Corn. Indeed? if they are your fellow brethren
and sisters in the Lord, why then do you bear
such enmity and hatred to them, that you help burn
or destroy their relics or bones, and break their
images to pieces, wherever you have been able to
get at them? is this not a fine brotherhood and sisterhood?
accursed Anabaptists that you are.

Herm. We do not meddle with your affairs; if you
would leave us alone in our faith and in our walk
and conversation, as we leave you alone in your
religion, and with your images, relics or dead men’s
bones, your hands would remain unstained with and
innocent of our blood. But you generation of Cain
first killed the saints of God, and then take them to
exalt and honor them with fasting and celebrating,
and erect to them idolatrous images, which they
themselves despised and rejected, and you honor
their bones, as Christ says, Luke 11:47: Woe unto
you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets:
and your fathers killed them. Truly ye bear witness
that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed
killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.
Therefore also saith the wisdom of God, I will send
them prophets and apostles, and some of them they
shall slay and persecute: that the blood of all the
prophets [which was shed from the foundation of the
world,] may be required of this generation; from the
blood of Abel. Matt. 23.

Fr. Corn. Ah, bah! would you * * * accursed
Anabaptists compare yourself to the prophets, apostles,
and to God’s holy martyrs, popes and priests,
whose blood was shed for the Catholic, Christian
faith, of which you Anabaptists are now such enemies,
that you through the rejection of the sacrament
of the priesthood reject, not only the six other
sacraments, and all our Christian ceremonies and
acts of worship, but also all the articles of the Christian,
Catholic faith, as I have said; therefore you are
put to death; do you understand this, you uncouth,
blockheaded Anabaptist that you are?

Herm. However uncouth and blockheaded I am,
I understand very well that you put us to death because
we do not believe or observe these popish, or
Romish, church articles, part of which you have
mentioned. And you think that you do God service
by killing us for it, as Christ says (John 16:2,3):
“They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea,
the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will
think that he doeth God service. And these things
will they do unto you, because they have not known
the Father, nor me.”

Fr. Corn. Bah! you bewitched and devil-possessed
Anabaptist, would you also fain claim this for your
side, would you? Bah, and would you charge and
upbraid us priests and Catholics with such things,
would you? Bah, and would you also say that we
priests know neither God nor his Son Jesus Christ,
would you? Ah, bah! who knows God and Jesus
Christ better than we Catholic priests? Hence this
is all spoken concerning the Jewish priests, and concerning
the Anabaptists, Calvinists, Lutherans, and
other heretics, who in France and Spain in these
lands and elsewhere, so tyrannically persecute,
trouble, torment, and martyrize us priests, because
we have the true knowledge of God and Christ,
see.

Herm. It is to be feared that Christ will not know
you, though you think that you know him so very
well; for you are of so many different orders and
rules. You are a Franciscan, the other an Augustinian,
the other a Carmelite, the other a Jacobine
or Dominican, the other a Benedictine; yea, innumerable
are the orders and sects into which you
are divided, and each has its special ceremonies and
rules, according to which he must live, of which not
a word is found in the teaching of Christ; how then
shall he know you!

Fr. Corn. Indeed? you hellish, devilish Anabaptist,
though we are so diverse in regard to orders,
rules and ceremonies, are we ecclesiastics not all
comprehended in one sacrament of priesthood, eh?

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Herm. Your sacrament of priesthood is nevertheless
an article like all the other articles of your faith,
of which nothing is found written in the holy Scriptures,
hence I have no knowledge of, nor faith in it.

Fr. Corn. Ah, you accursed Anabaptist, answer
me then, why God the Father should not be willing
to know us, who are his priests, for do we not daily,
in the Mass, offer up his Son Jesus Christ, in flesh
and blood? Bah, whom should they both know
better than us, their priests? What will you say
now, eh?

Herm. How shall I here tell you the secret of the
mass? I do not myself know it; but you know it
very well.

Fr. Corn. Indeed? if you do not know the secret
of the mass, how comes it then that you heretics undertake
to describe such an accursed “Death-bed
of the mass?” in which it says, that the mass, as it
were, is lying sick of a putrid ulcer, which she has
in her canon, and of which she will have to die.
Bah! and do you accursed heretics then not know
the secret of the mass, as you call it? Bah! may the
devil skin you with the “Death-bed of the mass,”
accursed Anabaptists that you are.

Herm. We have not composed or written the
book of the “Death-bed of the mass,” and do you
take it so ill that I speak of the secret of the mass?
is it not a common saying, also among the papists
when they are asked in regard to something which
they do not wish to tell, they generally answer: “I
do not want to tell the secret of the mass.”

Fr. Corn. Bah! the devil and his mother have
introduced this saying among the laity. I would
that all who use it would sink together through the
earth into the abyss of hell, that I would.

Recorder. O father Cornelis, the people say it
without thinking any evil by it; I have frequently
heard priests say it, and to confess the truth, I have
often said it myself, without any evil thought or reflection.

Fr. Corn. Well, it is enough of it; but, you Anabaptist,
answer me whether you believe, that the
real flesh and blood of Christ Jesus are offered up by
us priests in the mass, let us hear.

Herm. You must ask me concerning things that
are contained in the holy Scriptures; for I have not
studied your faith or religion.

Fr. Corn. Indeed? You crazy, bedeviled Anabaptist,
and would you only be asked concerning
things that are expressly contained in the holy
Scriptures? Come on then, now I will soundly ask
you in regard to things that are most clearly contained
in the holy Scriptures. Bah! I have heard
it said, that you have grown-up children running
about at home, that are still unbaptized, nevertheless
Christ, in the third chapter of John, says to
Nicodemus: “Verily, verily, except every man be
born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter
into the kingdom of God. Bah, is this not something
that is contained in the holy Scriptures, eh?

Herm. When the apostles, according to the command
of Christ (Matt. 28), went and taught all
nations to believe in Jesus Christ before they baptize
them, did the converts to the faith, in the meantime,
while they were being instructed, also go about unbaptized
at home?

Fr. Corn. Bah, and if your children should die in
the meantime, would they not go to the devil in
hell, I suppose?

Herm. No, no more than the children or converts
to the faith in the time of the apostles.

Fr. Corn. Ah, bah! that was another thing; those
children were circumcised, and thereby they were
saved, though they died unbaptized; bah, here
you are in a corner, happen what will, yes, yes,
yes!

Herm. Those children were not all circumcised;
for the faith in Jesus Christ was preached and
taught also among the uncircumcised gentiles; now
I am out of the corner again.

Fr. Corn. Indeed? I shall put you in the corner
again. Bah! as the children of the uncircumcised
Gentiles, that died without baptism, went to the
devil, so your children that die without baptism also
go into eternal perdition; do you understand this?

Herm. Our children that die before baptism certainly
do not go into eternal perdition, any more
than did the children of the Old Testament, that
died uncircumcised before the eighth day.

Fr. Corn. Ah, bah! do you think that the children
of the Old Testament, that died uncircumcised
before the eighth day, are saved? bah, this were a
fine thing.

Herm. Yes, this we think, without once doubting
it, and I am surprised to hear you doubt it.

Fr. Com. Bah, what do you make of the original
sin then, which the children inherit from Adam
and Eve, eh?

Herm. What do you make of the death of Christ?
for John the Baptist said: “Behold, the Lamb of
God, which beareth away the sin of the world.”
John 1:29.

Fr. Com. Bah, Christ bears away all the sin of
the world, as you Anabaptists understand, think
and believe. Bah, who then shall be damned? no
one, I suppose.

Herm. Christ says in the sixteenth chapter of
Mark: “He that believeth not shall be damned;”
but he nowhere says: He that is not baptized (understand,
in infancy) shall be damned.

Fr. Corn. Bah, here you lie with your vile, false,
lying mouth; for did I not tell you, that in the third
chapter of St. John it is written, that Christ said to
Nicodemus: Verily, verily, except every man be
born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter
into the kingdom of God? bah! here I have
certainly cornered you, have I not, eh?

Herm. No; for Christ there speaks of no external
baptism, nor does he mention baptism; but he
speaks of the regeneration which is performed by
the Spirit of God, who is sometimes also called a
water in the holy Scriptures. For thus says the
Lord by the prophet Isaiah in the forty-fourth
chapter (v. 3): “I will pour water upon him that is
thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour
my Spirit upon thy seed.” Again, by the prophet
Ezekiel, in the thirty-sixth chapter (verses 25,26):
“I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall
be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your
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idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I
give you, and a new Spirit will I put within you.”
Again, in the thirty-ninth chapter (v. 29), the Lord
says by Ezekiel: “I have poured out my Spirit upon
the house of Israel.” Again, by the prophet Joel, in
the second chapter (v. 28): “Then will I pour out
my Spirit upon all flesh,” etc.

Fr. Corn. Well, all this is done through the sacrament
of baptism, when the children are baptized;
for then the devil is exorcised by the priest, and they
are cleansed from the original sin, inherited from
Adam and Eve, and they obtain a new heart and a
new spirit; bah, thus does God pour or shed his
Spirit upon all flesh; you will not cheat me out of
this—you are cornered and remain cornered, see!

Herm. I tell you again, that Christ, when he
talked with Nicodemus, meant such a regeneration
as does not concern external baptism, nor does it
children; but it concerns the true believers in Christ,
who are begotten according to the will of God, by
the word of truth, as James says in the first chapter.
Again, Peter, in the first chapter of his first epistle,
says: “See that you love one another with a pure
heart fervently: being born again, not of corruptible
seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which
liveth and abideth forever.” Of similar Scriptures
which do not concern little children or external baptism,
there are more yet.

Fr. Corn. Bah, but if the regeneration of water
and of the Spirit does not concern children, they
must certainly and unmistakably go to the devil;
for you acknowledge yourself, that he who does
not believe will be damned. Bah, children do certainly
not believe as you also say. And when they
besides remain unbaptized, and die thus, they must
surely be damned; for by what other way could
they be saved, eh?

Herm. By the death of Christ, as I have told
you. And Christ also says (Matt. 5:18,19), that
to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.

Fr. Corn. Yes, these are the same arguments
with which your hedge-preacher yesterday made
my spleen run over. Bah, what does all this disputing
and arguing amount to; if you would suffer
yourself to be converted, you must be willing to be
taught, and brought to the Catholic, Christian faith
of our mother, the holy Roman church, and to her
baptism and religion. Bah, why will you trust so
much in the heresies of that damned arch-heretic,
Menno Simons, and so firmly rely upon this bewitched
hedge-preacher? Bah, why do you not
believe me as well as that Menno Simons? for I am
as learned, and have read as much, and certainly
much more, as this * * * bishop, Jacob the weaver,
and as a Dietrick Phillips, and an Ubbo Frisius, and
such devil’s brood, I suppose, eh?

Herm. I trust (or build) not upon Menno Simons,
nor upon any man; for the prophet Jeremiah says
in his seventeenth chapter (v. 5): Thus saith the
Lord: Cursed be the man that trusteth in man.

Fr. Corn. This is very true; in this you say very
well, see; if you begin to talk like this, I feel quite
hopeful, that I will convert you with the help of
God, from this miserable Anabaptism. So I will
first prevail upon you, to renounce the same, and
to have your unbaptized children baptized in the
Catholic church, by a priest, as a good Christian
is in duty bound to do, see. Well, Herman, what
think you of this, eh?

Herm. I do not think that you are the man that
will convert me to your mother, the Roman church,
or who will bring me to it, that I shall have my unbaptized
children baptized in the papistic church.

Fr. Corn. Ah bah, how do you talk in this strain
again; a thousand devils (God bless us), what has
come over you? It seems, as though he would trust
no longer in Menno Simons, nor in any other man;
but as soon as I begin with kindness and friendliness
to admonish him to renounce Anabaptism,
and to have his unbaptized children baptized in our
Catholic church, he instantly pipes another tune.
Is this not a fine thing? If you will not be converted,
and have your unbaptized children baptized in our
church, after the Catholic rite, you can be burned
alive at the stake, see.

Herm. This you papists could also do just as
well, even if I turned from my faith, and had my
unbaptized children baptized in your church.

Fr. Corn. Be sure, we could; but we would give
you the sword. If you will suffer yourself to be converted
with kindness, I insure you the sword, that
I do.

Herm. For what purpose should you give me
a sword? it would be of no use to me, for we use
no swords.

Fr. Corn. Tush, tush, tush! you well understand
what I mean by it: you would only be beheaded
with the sword, see.

Herm. After I should have truly and unfeignedly
confessed, that I had erred in the faith, and after
I should have my unbaptized children baptized in
your church, would I then, according to your saying
or meaning, not be a good, upright Christian?

Fr. Corn. Jesus, yes, Herman, and should you
not in every manner, yes, you, faithful Herman,
be as good a Christian as any one can be? This is
what I like to hear, see.

Herm. And would you papists make no sin of it,
to shed the blood of such a good, upright Christian?

Fr. Corn. Fie, tush, tush, tush, bah, is it nothing
else? You would have to die nevertheless, because
of your having apostatized from the Catholic
Christian faith, and having yourself rebaptized, see.

Herm. The shepherd of the hundred sheep, of
whom Christ speaks in the fifteenth chapter of Luke,
did nevertheless not cut the throat of the lost or
strayed sheep, when he had found it; but he laid it
upon his shoulders, and carried it home rejoicing.

Fr. Corn. Ah, bah! what is the use of all this
raving and prating? if you want to be converted,
be converted, and recant; what shall I say of this?
Bah, I should sooner convert the devil in hell and
his mother, than I could convert one of these obdurate,
petrified Anabaptists; this I swear to you,
that I do.

Herm. Therefore I said, that you are not the
man who shall be able to prove to me from the holy
Scriptures, that my faith, and my baptism, which
I received upon confession of my faith in Jesus
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Christ, is evil; how then should you be able to
convert me from it?

Fr. Corn. Indeed? but what devil in hell makes
you people so presumptuous as that you have yourselves
rebaptized, who have once been baptized?
Show me once from the holy Scriptures, that a
Christian that has once been baptized is to have
himself rebaptized. Bah, I stake my neck, that you
will not be able to show this to me with the holy
Scriptures, see.

Herm. Alas! poor Friar Cornelis, you have already
lost your neck; for in the nineteenth chapter
of the Acts of the Apostles it is written: “And it
came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth,
Paul having passed through the upper coasts came
to Ephesus; and finding certain disciples, he said
unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since
ye believed? And they said unto him, We have
not so much as heard whether there be any Holy
Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then
were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with
the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people,
that they should believe on him which should come
after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they
heard this, they were baptized in the name of the
Lord Jesus. Now, poor Friar Cornelis, here you
lose your neck.”

Fr. Corn. Enough, ah, bah, if they had been
rightly baptized, Paul would not have caused them
to be rebaptized. No, I have not yet lost my neck,
that I have not.

Herm. Well then, I answer the same: if I had
been rightly baptized, I would also not have had
myself rebaptized. But now you can well hear, that
you have unjustly so often called me an accursed
Anabaptist.

Fr. Corn. But you were certainly very well baptized;
for the priest had baptized you in the name
of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. And
afterwards, only six or seven years ago, you had
yourself baptized again; are you therefore not an
accursed, damned Anabaptist, eh?

Herm. I was not baptized upon my faith in Jesus
Christ, but in my unbelief; and when I heard and
understood this, I had myself baptized upon my
faith, as Christ himself has said in the sixteenth
chapter of Mark: “He that believeth and is baptized
shall be saved.” Am I therefore an accursed,
damned Anabaptist?

Fr. Corn. Yes, you are and remain a damned,
accursed Anabaptist, if you do not become converted.
For St. Paul says, that there is but one
God, one faith, and one baptism; is it not Anabaptism
then, to have one’s self rebaptized?

Herm. For this reason you papists are justly
(according to your saying) called Anabaptists by
the Calvinists, because you have rebaptized in your
churches their children, that had been baptized once
out here in their preaching.

Fr. Corn. O you awkward, block-headed Anabaptist,
those children were not rightly baptized,
and you know yourself well enough how to prove
from the nineteenth chapter of the Acts of the
Apostles, that St. Paul caused those who had not
been rightly baptized under John’s baptism to be
rebaptized. Bah, are we Catholics Anabaptists? I
suppose so, * * * What shall I say now, does it
now become fool’s work altogether with the sacrament
of baptism—see wherewith we are now tormented
and vexed; would you accursed Anabaptist
now begin to call us Catholics Anabaptists? Bah!
* * *

Herm. I do not call you Anabaptists; for I only
say, that the Calvinists call you Anabaptists, because
you rebaptize their children, which they had
once baptized.

Fr. Corn. * * *

(He spoke here only vile words of abuse.)

Herm. Our baptism is nevertheless administered
according to the institution of Christ; for in our
church the believing are baptized, but you baptize
the unbelieving.

Fr. Corn. Bah, the sponsors believe in behalf of
the children, until they are old enough to believe
themselves, do you understand this?

Herm. No; I find nothing said in the Scriptures,
about sponsors, nor about one man believing in behalf
of another.

Fr. Corn. Bah, now you are clearly cornered; for
does not St. Luke say in the fifth chapter, that
Christ saw the faith of the bearers who let down the
man afflicted with the palsy, through the roof with
his couch, and that he therefore healed him and
forgave his sins, eh? Bah, here for once I have
clearly cornered you; get out if you can. Now you
have spectacles on your nose, have you not, eh?

Herm. No; for from this it is not to be understood,
that the man afflicted with the palsy did not
himself believe, or was without faith, as are the children
which you baptize.

Fr. Corn. Bah, the old fathers or teachers of our
mother, the holy Roman Catholic church do nevertheless
understand, that the bearers of the man
afflicted with the palsy signify the sponsors, who
hold the children when they are being baptized, and
believe in behalf of the children, till these are old
enough to believe for themselves; for to this end
the sacrament of confirmation is instituted, to put
the children, when they are old enough to believe
themselves, in remembrance that they were baptized.
Bah, I could very well show you this from
the ancient fathers, but you Anabaptists will rely
most firmly on the holy Scriptures alone, so that
you will not once hearken to the ancient fathers or
teachers of the holy church. Bah, it seems, as the
provincial of the Augustinians tells me, that, when
one begins to mention something to you from
St. Jerome, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, St. Gregory,
or some other ancient fathers, that you people
carry on in just such a crazy and ugly manner, as
though one began to speak to you of the very devil—is
this not a fine thing?

Herm. Because we wish to be only Christians,
therefore we do not want to hearken to the teachings
of the ancient fathers; for they describe popery,
as of sponsors, of the sacrament of confirmation, and
the whole popery which you follow and observe.

Fr. Corn. O you damned, accursed Anabaptist,
do you call the sacrament of confirmation popery?

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Herm. What else is it then? for I have never
read in the holy Scriptures of the sacrament of confirmation.

Fr. Corn. Bah, and are so dull, awkward and
block-headed, that you do not understand it, though
you read of it; for confirmation means the imposition
of hands, see.

Herm. Ah, does it mean this? pardon me, that
through my awkwardness and dullness I do not
understand such very high and fine Latin.

Fr. Corn. Ah, bah, did I say it is Latin, see
here.

Herm. What language is it then? I certainly
would like to know.

Fr. Corn. Bah, that I do not know myself; but
we Catholics understand it by the word confirmation,
the sacrament of confirmation, or the laying
on of the hands of the bishop, when our bishops
and suffragans confirm grown-up children or adults,
as also the apostles did; hence it is that I say,
that you sectarians read of many holy sacramental
things in the Scriptures, which you do not understand,
and therefore you do not know our sacrament
of confirmation, that you do not.

Herm. If your bishops or suffragans by such
confirmation and laying on of hands could give to
the grown-up children and adults the Holy Ghost,
and that they spake with tongues, and prophesied
as did the apostles, and also those upon whom they
laid their hands, then I should very well understand
and know your confirmation.

Fr. Corn. Bah, there had to be miracles then,
when the people did not believe yet, in order that
they might believe the apostles; do you understand
this, you stupid Anabaptist?

Herm. If Christ had commanded you to imitate
such laying on of hands, he would also do those
miracles through you. Hence, when your bishops
do such miracles with their confirmation and imposition
of hands, then I shall believe you too.

Fr. Corn. Tush, tush, tush, these are the same
arguments and chatterings which also your accursed
hedge-preacher advanced yesterday against the sacrament
of confirmation, and the sacrament of extreme
unction. Bah, though Christ himself did not
command us to imitate it, the apostles commanded
us to do it; for does not St. James, in the fifth
chapter, command that when any one is sick, the
priests of the church are to be sent for, to pray
over him, and to anoint him with oil, eh?

Herm. The oil of which James writes must have
been another oil than your oil; for with that the
sick were anointed, that they should recover from
their sickness, and they did recover from it. But
you priests do the very opposite; for if you knew
beforehand, that the sick should recover, and not
die, you would not anoint them with oil; for you
anoint no sick persons with oil except those who
you think will die.

Fr. Corn. Bah, my lords, did I not well know,
that it would be the same thing which it was yesterday
with their hedge-preacher? Bah, I lay you a
wager, that if I begin to prove to him, from the
same fifth chapter of St. James, the sacrament of
confession, he will also say, as his hedge-preacher
said yesterday, that I also ought to confess my sins
to him; just see, with what we are tormented and
vexed.

Herm. Did this seem to you so strange an answer
from him? for it is nevertheless written:
“Confess your sins one to another.” But when you
priests learn from people all that you wish to know,
then you let them go, and do not yourselves confess
to them who have confessed (as you call it)
their sins to you.

Fr. Corn. Yes, we call it confession, and it is
confession, and shall remain confession, in spite
of your teeth. Ah, bah, would it not be a fine
thing, if we priests also had to kneel down and
confess ourselves to the laity; and would they
have the power to absolve us from sin? I suppose
so. Bah, what a fine absolution that would
be! Bah, and if I here confess myself to you,
would you be so presumptuous as to think that
you have power to loose or forgive my sins, eh?

Herm. Such power as you or all priests have
to forgive sin, all men have; for Christ says, Mark
11:25: “Forgive, if ye have aught against any:
that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive
you your trespasses.” Again, Luke 6:37: “Forgive,
and ye shall be forgiven.”

Fr. Corn. O you accursed Anabaptist, have you
laymen priestly authority to forgive sin in confession?
Bah, the forgiveness of sin of which Christ
speaks, Mark 11; Luke 6, does not concern confession
or absolution. * * * Bah, we priests have in
the sacrament of confession and absolution a special
priestly authority to forgive and to retain sin, that
we do.

Herm. Whence do you priests get a special authority
to forgive sin, more than we, whom you call
laymen?

Fr. Corn. Bah, this special authority which
Christ delivered to his vicar, St. Peter, and St.
Peter left it to his vicars the popes, and the popes
impart to us of that power, because they cannot
themselves in person everywhere hear confession,
and absolve, see.

Herm. That the popes and you priests have the
special power to forgive and to retain sin, which
Christ gave to Peter, this you will not be able to
show to me with the holy Scriptures.

Fr. Corn. Indeed? O you accursed Anabaptist,
the executioner will be able very well to show it to
you, by kindling a good fire * * * and the very
devils in hell will also well show it to you with burning
pitch, brimstone, and tar in the fire of hell; this
I swear to you, that I do.

Herm. You papists can demonstrate your faith,
doctrine and religion with nothing better than with
the executioner, and with sword, fire, rope and gallows;
for these are the best demonstrations or proofs
which you have, and thus your forefathers demonstrated
their faith and doctrine to God’s prophets,
to Christ, to his apostles, and to the saints of God,
from the blood of Abel until now.

Fr. Corn. Ha, you hellish, devilish, damned, accursed
Anabaptists, for what do you take our holy
fathers the popes and us priests? may thunder and
lightning kill, burn and pulverize you. Bah, that I
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should thus excite, exasperate and disquiet myself
for such an accursed Anabaptist.

Clerk of the criminal court. Tush, tush, Father
Cornelis, and Herman, speak gently with each
other.

Fr. Corn. Yes indeed, be gentle towards such
bedeviled, bewitched, heretics, who do not believe
anything. In good faith, do you Anabaptists then
go thus unconfessed and unabsolved to your supper?
I suppose so; for you regard it but as a bit of simple
common bread, and a little draught of common, flat
wine. The transubstantiation in the sacrament of
the altar with you is only popery, yea, sorcery, and
we priests are regarded as sorcerers by you, because
we adjure and conjure the true flesh and blood of
Christ in the host and in the cup, as you Sacramentarians
say, ill betide you.

Herm. Such confession, or absolution, or sacrament
of the altar we do not use in our church, but
we observe such forgiveness of sins, as Christ commands
us, Mark 11; and Luke 6, and such breaking
of bread, and distribution of the cup, as he in
his last supper commands us to do for his remembrance.

Fr. Corn. Bah, but with that forgiveness of sins
Christ means this when your neighbor has done
aught amiss to you; but I ask concerning the sins
which you people have sinned against God, whether
you go with these unconfessed and unabsolved to
your devil’s supper, eh?

Herm. We pray as Christ has taught us, Matthew
6:12. “Forgive us our debts, as we forgive
our debtors.” And we use no devil’s supper.

Fr. Corn. Your breaking of bread, and distribution
of the cup is the devil’s supper of which Paul
writes in the tenth chapter of his first epistle to
the Corinthians: Ye cannot drink the cup of the
Lord, and the cup of devils; ye cannot be partakers
of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils. But
the cup of blessing which we bless, that is, we Catholics,
is it not the communion of the blood of Christ?
The bread which we break, is it not the communion
of the body of Christ? Bah, and is your bit of
bread, and your cup with a little draught of flat
wine not a devil’s supper? for you sacramentarians
do not bless your cup, nor do you consecrate your
bit of bread, but it is wine and bread, and remains
wine and bread; bah, let us hear what you can answer
against this, that will be conclusive.

Herm. In regard to this, I must ask you, whether
you yourself believe, that Christ in his last supper
meant no other body or flesh, and no other blood,
than that which was to be broken and shed on the
cross for the remission of sins.

Fr. Corn. Ah, bah, and should I not believe this?
this is quite Catholic, that it is.

Herm. Well you will certainly also confess, I
think, that the bread which the apostles ate at the
supper was not crucified.

Fr. Corn. Bah, what hellish, devilish, heretical
question is this; never in all the days of my life did
I hear such a deep question. Bah, I believe and
know very well, that the apostles ate the same body
or flesh of Jesus Christ, which the day after the supper
was to be crucified, see.

Herm. Therefore, poor man, you do not understand
the sense or meaning of Christ, though Paul
in the tenth chapter of the first epistle to the Corinthians
very clearly explains the same, saying:
“Behold Israel after the flesh; are not they which
eat of the sacrifice partakers of the altar? Thus also
are we in the eating of the bread, and in the drinking
of the wine, partakers of the body and blood of
Christ.

Fr. Corn. Bah, you accursed Sacramentarian,
would you compare the flesh of God to the rotten
flesh of oxen, and the lousy flesh of sheep, and to
the rotten, putrid flesh of goats and other beasts and
carrions? * * * Bah, fie, what abominable and horrible
heresy is this?

Herm. You understand neither Paul nor me; for
what I say is this, that Paul by this comparison of
the sacrifices of the altar (which the Jews ate, and
thereby became partakers of the sacrifice in the remission
of sins) explains and expounds the communion
or participation of the broken bread and of
the cup of wine (which we eat and drink in remembrance
of the body and blood of Christ), that we
thus also become partakers in the washing from
sins through the body and blood of Christ, which
he offered up for the sins of the world.

Fr. Corn. Ah, bah, see, now I plainly understand
your heretical, Sacramentarian meaning, that
you only make comparisons and memorials of the
flesh and blood of Christ. Eh, accursed Anabaptist,
why then does St. Paul say, in the eleventh chapter
of his first epistle to the Corinthians: “Wherefore
whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup
of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body
and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself,
and so let him eat of that bread and drink of
that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily,
eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not
discerning the Lord’s body.” Bah, answer me once
to this, you accursed Sacramentarian that you are.

Herm. In the tenth chapter of the first epistle to
the Corinthians Paul writes: “We being many are
one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers
of that one bread.” Again in the twelfth chapter:
“We are all members of one body. If we then are
members of one body, unto which Christ has united
us together by his baptism and by his Spirit, no external
sign can be fitter, to show or signify the
union of one body, than that in the breaking of
bread we all become partakers of one bread, in
token that we being many are one bread and body.
Likewise it is also with the wine; for as many grains
are ground together, and made into one bread, so
of many grapes one drink is made. Therefore let
every one examine himself, whether he be worthy
of the communion of the bread and of the cup of the
Lord, and whether he love his fellow brother with
a pure heart: for if he hates his brother, and does
not love him, and would besides make himself a
partaker yet of the bread and of the cup of the Lord
as though he were a member of Christ, he shall be
guilty of the body and blood of the Lord, and shall
eat judgment to himself, not discerning, that the
body of the Lord is signified by this communion or
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participation, that we are members of one body,
into which Christ has united us.

Fr. Corn. Tush, tush, tush! it seems that you
also could preach a little sermon in the Gruthuysbosch.
Bah, this people know nothing else to do
but to preach; but you would have to preach a long
time to me, before I would believe that a man will
eat and drink judgment to himself on a bit of common
bread, and a little draught of wine, by which
you Sacramentarians would only signify the body
and blood of Christ. Bah, I would rather believe
that God’s name is Henry, that I would.

Herm. What greater importance was there in
the sacrifices of the Jews, of sheep and doves, than
in the bread and wine, which are all types of the
true sacrifice which Christ made on the cross in his
own flesh and blood? And if the Jews had nevertheless,
according to the command of Christ, to lay
down their offering before the altar, and first go
and become reconciled to their brother, before they
were to offer, then a Christian also ought first to
examine himself, before he partakes of the bread
and the cup of the Lord.

Fr. Corn. Bah, a thousand devils, God bless us,
if the bread and the wine are only types of the true
sacrifice of the flesh and blood of Christ on the cross
why then does he say in the sixth chapter of John:
“The bread that I will give is my flesh;” again:
“My flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink
indeed; therefore he that eateth my flesh, and drinketh
my blood, shall live forever,” eh?

Herm. This argument is against yourself, for you
would say that the bread is therefore the body of
Christ, and the wine his blood, because Paul says,
that whosoever eats and drinks it unworthily eats
and drinks judgment to himself. And here Christ
says: “He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my
blood, shall live forever.” If therefore that bread
and wine of which Paul writes, were the flesh and
blood of Christ, no one could therein eat judgment
to himself.

Fr. Corn. Bah, this accursed Sacramentarian
would torment and pester us here, I suppose, with
all these abominable blasphemies against God’s true
body and blood. Bah, the very devil of hell sits in
his accursed mouth.

Herm. I have not mentioned one word about the
body and blood of God; how then can I have blasphemed
there against?

Fr. Corn. O, you accursed Anabaptist and Sacramentarian,
are the body and blood of Christ not
also the body and blood of God? are God the Father
and the Son of God not one God, or would
you make two Gods of them. Bah, are you also a
Trinitarian, I suppose, eh?

Herm. Yet you said, when you wanted to dispute
about the mass, that you priests daily in the mass,
offer up to God his Son Jesus Christ; hence you
make a distinction between God and the body of his
Son, which you now begin to call the flesh and body
of God.

Fr. Corn. Bah, the devil and his mother wag
your tongue. You would now like to bite into my
trap, would you? Ah, you wicked, vile, false, crafty
Anabaptist and Sacramentarian, yea, also Trinitarian,
because you speak so abominably of the holy
Trinity, do you then not believe, that Christ is the
second person in the Godhead of the holy Trinity?
Bah, it seems not from your speaking.

Herm. We only know to speak of things that
are mentioned in the holy Scriptures.

Fr. Corn. O you Trinitarian, do we not read in
the holy Scriptures of God the Father, and of God
the Son, and of God the Holy Ghost, eh?

Herm. Yet the holy Scriptures speak of only one
God, and of the Son of the living God, and of the
Holy Ghost.

Fr. Corn. Indeed? you accursed Trinitarian; if
you would read the symbol309 of Athanasius, you
would read of God the Father, and of God the Son,
and of God the Holy Ghost, which three persons
are therein called one true God, of whom the Father
is the first person in the Godhead; the Son is the
second person in the Godhead, and the Holy Ghost
is the third person in the Godhead; and these three
persons constitute the holy Trinity, that they do.
Do you understand now, you Trinitarian, eh?

Herm. I have not studied the symbol of Athanasius;
for it is enough for me, that I believe in the
living God, and that Christ is the Son of the living
God, as Peter believed (Matt. 16), and in the Holy
Ghost, which is shed on us abundantly through Jesus
Christ our Savior, as Paul writes in the third
chapter of his epistle to Titus.

Fr. Corn. Indeed? you are certainly fine fellows,
that God should shed his Holy Spirit upon you who
will not believe that the Holy Ghost is also God
himself. But this heresy you pick up and study in
the devilish books of that accursed Erasmus of Rotterdam,
who in his preface to the books of St. Hilary
writes, that St. Hilary, at the end of his twelfth
book, says, that the Holy Ghost is nowhere in the
holy Scriptures called God, but that we have become
so presumptuous as to dare call the Holy
Ghost God, which the ancient teachers of the church
did not dare do. In like manner this wicked Erasmus
is also a great enemy of the divinity of Christ.
Ah, bah! would you follow this damned Trinitarian,
eh?

Herm. We follow neither Erasmus nor Hilary,
but we follow the holy Scriptures, as Hilary and
Erasmus herein do.

Fr. Corn. Though the holy Scriptures nowhere
call the Holy Spirit God, what matters it? The
Holy Ghost himself has inspired our mother the
holy Roman Catholic church, to call him God, as
appears from the symbol of Athanasius, see. But in
good faith, if you believe the holy Scriptures, why
then will you not believe in the divinity of Christ, eh?

Herm. That be far from us, that we should not
believe in the divinity of Christ, that he is divine
and heavenly, and not earthly, as you people believe;
therefore we are put to death by you.

Fr. Corn. * * * Bah, we put you to death, because
you people will not believe, that Christ assumed
the seed of Mary his blessed mother, see.

Herm. We believe that the word became flesh,
as John writes in the first chapter of his gospel.

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Fr. Corn. Bah, now I have got you well cornered;
for God was the word. And if God became
flesh, why then would you bite into my trap, because
I say, God’s flesh, God’s body, and God’s
blood, eh?

Herm. We too believe that God was the word;
but would you then therefrom understand, that the
living God (of whom Christ is the Son) became
himself flesh? this were certainly contrary to the
entire holy Scriptures.

Fr. Corn. Yet Christ says, John 10:30; “I and
my Father are one.” Again, John 14:9: “He that
hath seen me hath seen the Father.” Bah, where
are you now, eh?

Herm. Christ also says (John 17:21–23): “That
they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me,
and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that
the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And
the glory which thou gavest me I have given them;
that they may be one, even as we are one: I in
them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect
in one.” Again (Acts 4:32): “The multitude
of them that believed were of one heart and of one
soul.” Again, Paul to the Galatians (3:8) says:
“For ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” Again (Ephesians
5:31,32): “For this cause shall a man leave
his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his
wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great
mystery.”

Fr. Corn. Tush, tush, you have preached enough;
for all this you have drawn from the venomous
breasts of Erasmus. But answer me, why Christ
says: “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father,”
see.

Herm. Christ also says, John 6:46: “Not that
any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of
the Father, he hath seen the Father.” Again, John
1:18: “No man hath seen God at any time.”
Again, John 14:28: “For my Father is greater
than I.” Again, Mark 13:32: “But of that day
and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels
which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”
From this it is sufficiently shown that the
Father himself did not become flesh.

Fr. Corn. Bah, this you need not teach me; for
I say myself that Christ, the second person in the
Godhead, or of the holy Trinity, became man,
whom you will not call God; do you understand
this, you accursed Trinitarian that you are?

Herm. I call him the Son of the living God, as
Peter called him (Matt. 16:16), and Lord, as the
apostles call him.

Fr. Corn. O you accursed Trinitarian, I could
jump out of my skin for anger, that I could.

Herm. Then you must jump out of your skin,
when in the second chapter of the Acts of the apostles
(verse 22), you read that Peter calls him but a
man of God, saying: “Jesus of Nazareth, a man310
approved of God among you by miracles and wonders
and signs, which God did by him.” Again, in
the same chapter (verse 32): “This Jesus hath God
raised up.” Again, in the third chapter (verse 15):
“Whom God hath raised from the dead.” Again,
in Acts 4:10: “Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye
crucified, whom God raised from the dead.” Again,
Paul (Acts 17:31) says: “Because he hath appointed
a day, in the which he will judge the
world in righteousness by that man whom he hath
ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto
all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”

Fr. Corn. Yes, yes, tush, tush, tush, bah! these
are the same arguments which this damned Erasmus
prefers, in his book, de modo orandi, and in
Apologia ad Episcopum Hispalensem, Alphonsum
Mauricum. But you Trinitarian, if you will call
Christ only the Son of God, you do not esteem him
better than Adam; for Luke says in his third chapter,
that Adam also was the son of God. Bah! see
once, with what we are tormented.

Herm. That be far from us, that we should not
esteem Christ better than Adam; for because we
believe, that the body of Christ is not earthy of the
earth, as was Adam the first man, but that he is a
heavenly man, as Paul writes in the fifteenth chapter
of his first epistle to the Corinthians; therefore we
are put to death by you; hence you yourselves do
not esteem him better than Adam.

Fr. Corn. O you accursed Trinitarian, how the
devil does wag your tongue. Bah, if you will not
believe, that Christ is truly man, and if you will also
not believe, that he is the true God, what * * *
is he then?

Herm. Do not talk so unbecomingly; for Christ
is no devil; but he is the true Son of God, as John
writes in the fifth chapter of his first epistle; and he
is also a true man, as Paul writes in the fifth chapter
of his epistle to the Romans.

Fr. Corn. Bah, but does not St. John in the same
chapter say of the Son: “This is the true God;”
eh?

Herm. No, for John says: We know that the
Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding,
that we may know the true God, and
that we should be in his true Son. This is the true
God, and eternal life. Hereby John means this true
God whom the Son taught us to know.

Fr. Corn. Bah, you Trinitarian; now it occurs to
me that St. John says in the same chapter: There
are three that bear record in heaven, the Father,
the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are
one. Bah, here you are soundly cornered, poor
Trinitarian that you are.

Herm. I have often heard it said, that Erasmus
in his Annotations charges you papists with having
interpolated these words, and that they are not contained
in the Greek text, even as you people have
taken out and added many other things in the holy
Scriptures.

Fr. Corn. Bah, may the fire of hell forever burn
and torment you with your devilish, damned, accursed
heretic Erasmus. Bah, I could tear my cap
for anger, that I could.

Herm. Why then do you not tear your cap,
when you read that Greek text yourself, and see
that this is not contained in it?

Fr. Corn. Bah, my lords, what do you think
of this—am I wrong in so sharply attacking in my
sermons this damned heretic, this wicked Trinitarian
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Erasmus? For it is true, this he writes; yea,
what is still worse, in his Annotations to the fourth
chapter of St. Luke he has written, that a very
great and strange corruption has been wrought in
the holy Scriptures in the Greek and Latin copies,
that sometimes something is added and interpolated
and sometimes something taken away, omitted, and
erased, on account of the heretics: yea, that the
marginal notes which were now and then written by
one or the other have all been foisted into the text,
my lords, is it not a fine thing?

Recorder. Ah, Father Cornelis, we are no theologians;
we do not understand these things.

Fr. Corn. Indeed? Bah, I believe it; but this
Trinitarian would certainly understand it very well,
as you hear, that he charges us with it. Bah, he
would dare charge us Catholics with his arch-heretic,
this wicked Erasmus, that in the ninth chapter
of Romans, where Paul says: “Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ
came;” we have interpolated: “Who is over all,
God blessed forever. Amen.” For this accursed
Erasmus writes, that he has great doubts with regards
to this clause: ”Oui est benedictus in saecula.
Amen. Or these words are to be interpreted and
understood as a thanksgiving to God the Father,
thus: “Christ, etc, who is over all. God be blessed
for ever. Amen.” “Otherwise,” he writes, “I
have great doubts, whether this clause has not been
interpolated, as I find also in some other texts, that
they have added similar clauses, for the conclusion
of discourses, as, Tu autem Domine, etc., Gloria
Patri et Filio, etc., as their lessons and prayers are
all concluded with such clauses.” But as regards
the words of St. Thomas, in the twentieth chapter
of St. John’s gospel, you have no way of escape;
for there St. Thomas said to Christ: “My Lord
and my God.” Bah, to this he does not reply, yea,
with this he is soundly cornered; nevertheless, he
spitefully writes with regard to this: “This is the
first and last passage in the Scriptures, where
Christ is called God.” Bah, but you Trinitarian,
let us hear what you can say to this.

Herm. I reply to this, that Thomas said very
well here; for David says in the eighty-second
Psalm: “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you
are children of the Most High.” Christ himself also
quotes these words in the tenth chapter of John.
When the Jews took up stones to stone him, because
he had said, “I and the Father are one,” Jesus
answered them: “Many good works have I
shewed you from my Father; for which of those
works do you stone me? The Jews answered him,
saying: For a good work we stone thee not; but
for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man,
makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not
written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he
called them gods, unto whom the word of God
came, and the Scripture cannot be broken; say ye
of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent
into the world, thou blasphemest; because I said, I
am the son of God?” Again, Ex. 22:8,9: “If the
thief be not found, then the master of the house
shall be brought unto the gods, etc. The cause of
both parties shall come before the gods; and whom
the gods shall condemn, he shall pay double unto
his neighbor.”

Fr. Corn. Bah, but tell me without many words,
why Christ did not say to St. Thomas: Stay: I am
not your God? let us hear.

Herm. In regard to this my previous answer,
John 10; David in Ps. 82 will serve; but answer me,
why Christ did not reply to these words of Thomas:
“Upon this rock I will build my church,” as he
said, Matt. 16:18, when Peter answered him: “Thou
art the Christ, the Son of the living God”? He also
did not say to Thomas: “Flesh and blood hath not
revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in
heaven.” Why also does Christ, John 20:17; say
to his disciples: “I ascend unto my Father, and
your Father; and to my God, and your God”?
Again, Matt. 27:46: “My God, my God, why
hast thou forsaken me?”

Fr. Corn. Tush, tush, you Trinitarian. Bah,
from this would probably follow diabolical arguments
which would transcend all human comprehension.
Ah, bah, is Christ not truly God? why
then do we call his blessed mother the mother of
God, eh?

Herm. Because you will nowhere follow the holy
Scriptures, but would call everything by a contrary
and different name; for the holy Scriptures call her
the mother of Jesus, as in the first chapter of the
Acts of the Apostles, in the nineteenth chapter of
John, and in many other places of holy Scripture,
where she is not once called the mother of God.

Fr. Corn. Indeed? Bah, do you think that we
Catholics pay so much regard to the naked, bare,
meagre Scriptures? Ah, bah, the worthy, holy
council of Nice has ordained and decreed that
she should be called the mother of God. What do
you say to this?

Herm. Do you not hold the last council of Trent
to be of as great authenticity, dignity, and holiness
as the council of Nice?

Fr. Corn. Yea, in troth, and should we not?
Ah, bah, the Holy Ghost taught and spoke just as
well through the fathers in the worthy council of
Trent, as through the fathers in the council of
Nice. Bah, what need is there of asking this
question? have you nothing else to ask me? Bah, I
well perceive that you would fain drop the subject
concerning the mother of God.

Herm. I had to ask this in order to hear your
confession in regard to it; for now I know by the
council of Trent all the other councils, because I
have in my time heard and seen how things went at
the former council, which mocks and puts to shame
all previous councils.

Fr. Corn. O you hellish, devilish; accursed Trinitarian,
you blaspheme the Holy Ghost. It is a
wonder that we do not all together with you sink
into the earth. My lords, I am absolutely afraid to
speak any longer with this Beelzebubian Anabaptist,
Sacramentarian and Trinitarian, and enemy of
the mother of God, that I am.

Recorder. Can you not keep still in regard to
these things, Herman, as we requested of you?

Herm. I do not blaspheme the Holy Ghost, nor
am I an enemy of the mother of Christ.

761

Fr. Corn. Bah, do you not blaspheme the Holy
Ghost, when you ridicule, vilify and deride the
worthy council of Trent, and all the previous holy
councils? and will not call the worthy, holy, blessed
virgin Mary the mother of God, as the holy council
of Nice teaches and commands us to do? Bah,
are you not then a blasphemer of the Holy Ghost,
and an enemy of the mother of God, eh?

Herm. You papists were so presumptuous in
your council of Nice, that you dared call the
mother of Jesus Christ the mother of God, whom
neither the apostles nor the evangelists dared call
the mother of the Son of God.

Fr. Corn. O you damned, devilish Anabaptist,
you hellish Trinitarian, Sacramentarian and deadly
enemy of the blessed mother of God, we will call
her the mother of God in spite of your teeth, and
she is too the mother of God. Yea, she is the
mother of God, that she is?

Herm. You said yourself that there are three
persons in the holy Trinity, the Father, Son, and
the Holy Ghost, and that these three persons are
but one true God. If Mary then is the mother of
this true God, then she is just as well the mother of
the Father and of the Holy Ghost, and of the Son.

Fr. Corn. O you devilish heretic, I have proved
to you from the symbol of Athanasius, that the
Father is God, and that the Son is God, and that
the Holy Ghost is God, and that there are nevertheless
not three gods, but that these three are one
true, inseparable God, see.

Herm. If these three are not each a distinct, separate
God, but if the three are but one true inseparable
God, and if Mary is the mother of God, then
she must be the mother of all three, or the three
must each be a separate God. Where are you now
with your council of Nice?

Fr. Corn. Bah, may the fire of hell burn you,
you wicked, evil, vile, false, crafty Trinitarian; the
devil wags your accursed tongue. Bah, you would
drive an hundred thousand doctors of divinity mad
and crazy. Jesus, Jesus, worthy mother of God,
how you are reviled, despised and rejected by this
hellish devil’s brood, But in good faith, how would
you have her called—Maeyken Timmermans,311 as
you call her in your hellish, devilish sermons in the
Gruthuysbosch, eh?

Herm. We call her the mother of Jesus, as she is
called in the Scriptures, And how can you say that
we revile, despise and reject her?

Fr. Corn. O you accursed Anabaptist, I will
drop this, that you will not call her the mother of
God; but is this not odious reviling, despising and
rejecting, that your arch-heretic, Menno Symons
writes, that Christ did not assume the sinful earthly
seed of Mary, but that he came with flesh and blood,
with skin and hair, from heaven, into Mary, and
thus became man, and that he merely passed through
her body, as water through a sieve, or through a
spout;—bah, is this not reviling blaspheming, despising
and rejecting?

Herm. You do not understand what Menno Simons
writes; for what you here say, cannot be
found in his writings; but he shows with many
Scriptures, that the Word became flesh (as John
writes in his first chapter), and not the seed of
Mary.

Fr. Corn. Ah, bah, was Christ then not born
of the seed of David according to the promise;
which seed he assumed in the blessed virgin Mary,
of her most pure blood, and of that became flesh
and man, eh?

Herm. That Christ was born of the seed of David
(as regards the generation of which he was born) we
well believe; but the angel said to Joseph: That
which is begotten in her is of the Holy Ghost,
Matt. 1:20. Again, John 16:28, Christ himself says:
I came forth from the Father, and am come into the
world.

Fr. Corn. Ah, bah, Christ says this of his divinity,
that the same proceeded, and came into the
world from the Father, and not from his humanity,
you stupid Anabaptist.

Herm. Why then did Christ say, John 6:62:
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up
where he was before? Again, John 3:13: No man
hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came
down from heaven, even the Son of man. Again,
Paul says, Eph. 4:9,10: That he ascended; what is
it but that he also descended first into the lower
parts of the earth? He that descended is the same
also that ascended up far above all heavens.

Fr. Corn. Bah, you stupid Anabaptist, did Christ
then come from heaven into Mary with flesh and
blood, with skin and hair, entrails and all, as he ascended
up to heaven? Bah, what do you say of this,
you great, stupid, awkward ass?

Herm. I do not say this; but I say that the
Word came from heaven, and became flesh in Mary,
as John writes in his first chapter.

Fr. Corn. And we Catholics say that the most
pure blood of Mary became flesh, in spite of your
miserable teeth, see.

Herm. This defiance to my teeth is a small matter;
but this defiance to the holy Scriptures is a
great blasphemy.

Fr. Corn. Ha, you damned Anabaptist, I do not
blaspheme the holy Scriptures; but you revile the
holy, blessed, pure virgin Mary. Bah, I am surprised
that you do not say, that she conceived her
son Christ of her husband Joseph, as your hedge-preachers
preach in the Gruthuysbosch; is it not
a fine thing?

Herm. You wrong us greatly, that you say this
of us; for we believe as Matthew writes in his first
chapter: “Joseph took his wife, and knew her not
till she had brought forth her first born son.”

Fr. Corn Ah, bah! did Joseph know her afterwards,
eh?

Herm. It matters not to me whether he knew her
afterwards, or not.

Fr. Corn. Indeed? and do you then not believe
in the perpetual virginity of the blessed virgin Mary?
let us hear now.

Herm. We find nothing said in the Scriptures,
concerning her perpetual virginity.

762

Fr. Corn. Bah, this accursed Anabaptist would
pester me with the Scriptures. Will you then positively
believe nothing else but what is contained in
the holy Scriptures? Bah, hence it comes that you
thus despise, reject and revile the worthy mother
of God and imagine, yea, teach and believe that she
did the carnal works of the married state with Joseph
her husband, just as well as your filthy, sinful
wives do with you, and that she had many children
by Joseph her husband; bah, is this not a fine
thing?

Herm. And if she had done the work of the married
state with her husband Joseph, and brought
forth more children (which is ordained and commanded
of God, Gen. 1, and is a blessing) would she
thereby have sinned?

Fr. Corn. Bah, God blessed Adam and Eve, and
said: “Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the
earth,” before they transgressed the commandment;
but they did not continue in the blessing, but transgressed
the commandment of God, and thereby the
work of marriage became sin to them; bah, now
you are cornered.

Herm. You are cornered yourself; for, Gen. 9:1,
it is written: “God blessed Noah and his sons, and
said unto them: Be fruitful, and multiply, and
replenish the earth.” Again, the prophet Jeremiah,
in the twenty-ninth chapter, says: “Thus saith the
Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: Take ye wives,
and beget sons and daughters; and take wives for
your sons, and give your daughters to husbands,
that they may bear sons and daughters; that ye
may be increased.”

Fr. Corn. Bah, tush, tush, you have talked
enough; bah, hear how much talk there is in this
miserable Anabaptist. Bah, now that I hear you
talk, I will believe, that you Anabaptists undisguisedly
and presumptuously preach out there in the
Gruthuysbosch, that Maeyken Timmermans, as regards
the work of marriage, was not a hair better
than your filthy, unchaste, carnal wives are. Yea,
in order utterly to loose the marriage bond, and to
show, that women may have divers husbands, you
wicked Anabaptists dare preach and teach, that
Mary had children of many different husbands, like
your wives, whom you have in common—is this not
a fine thing?

Herm. Of such things as you here say I never
heard our teachers speak once, when they preached
the word; but it may sometimes have been asked
among us, whether the brethren and sisters of Christ,
of whom the holy Scriptures make mention, Matthew
13; Mark 6, etc., were natural children by Joseph
or Mary.

Fr. Corn. O you accursed Anabaptist, the holy
Scriptures calls some apostles, as St. James, St. Simon,
St. Judas, the Lord’s brethren, who were
merely his cousins, you stupid Anabaptists that
you are.

Herm. Yet, in the first chapter of Acts it is
written (after the eleven apostles are enumerated):
“These all continued with one accord in prayer
[and supplication,] with the women, and Mary the
mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.” Nevertheless,
I will not insist upon, or maintain, that
Mary the mother of Jesus gave birth yet to other
children.

Fr. Corn. Bah, but when you Anabaptists are
assembled in the Gruthuysbosch, you will maintain
it, and other things yet concerning her, which
are still much more wicked and abominable; for I
know it well, that I do.

Herm. We are greatly slandered, even as also
you often stand in your pulpit and preach about us
all that you please.

Fr. Corn. Indeed, do then any Anabaptists
sometimes come to hear me preach, eh?

Herm. Though we do not hear you preach ourselves,
yet we are told, that you stand in your pulpit
and preach, that the Calvinists and Anabaptists
teach and preach, that Mary the mother of Christ
was a filthy whore, for which you are censured by
learned men (in letters which they write to you),
how you slander us thereby.

Fr. Corn. Bah, * * * you miserable Anabaptist
* * * for such * * * letters I do not care * * *
do you understand this? And do you know nothing
else to say? Bah, you do not answer me in regard
to having the women in common: bah, you Anabaptists
have certainly gone about it very cunningly,
that you have the women and maidens in common;
for thereby you gain such a great number of adherents
for your Anabaptism. Bah, but show me once
from the Scriptures, that the women and maidens
are to be had in common, as you Anabaptists do in
your devil’s supper:—bah, see; let us hear, whether
you will be able to show me this.

Herm. No; for this I could show to you just
as little, as you can show to me from the holy
Scriptures, that the women and maidens must be
scourged, as you do in your secret disciplining.
But you have certainly well practiced the secret
disciplining or scourging of the maidens and women,
for thereby you gain such a great retinue of
devotaries.

Fr. Corn. Bah, I would rather * * * than reply
to all your talk; but answer my question. * * *

Herm. All such barefaced lies, as that we have
the women and maidens in common, I do not deem
worthy of an answer.

Fr. Corn. Ah, bah! Is it a barefaced lie, that
you Anabaptists have the women in common? Why
then does all the world speak of it, and why then is
it printed in so many books, which by us Catholics
are written against you, and which I daily read.
Fie, you adulterers! fie, you dishonorers of marriage!

Herm. All that are of the world are liars; hence
you and your Catholics cannot be believed.

Fr. Corn. Ah, am I of the world, * * * you
accursed, bewitched, damned Anabaptist that you
are. Bah, you stupid beast, and do you not see,
that I am spiritual? But you evince worldly works
by having all the women in common; but I have
vowed chastity; do you understand this, you dishonorer
of marriage that you are?

Herm. We do not dishonor marriage; but if you
are spiritual, and have vowed chastity, then it is
surprising that you have your delight in this carnal,
763
unclean, secret disciplining, or scourging of the women.

Fr. Corn. O you devilish Anabaptist and dishonorer
of marriage, I could almost fly into your eyes
or into your mouth; bah, what do you understand
about my secret disciplining which I employ with
my devotaries? Bah, you are filthy, carnal, unchaste,
voluptuous rogues, that you thus use the
women in common, like dogs. Yes, you damned dishonorers
of marriage are nothing more than rotten,
stinking dog carrions; for you go about it in this
respect like dogs, though you would deny it before
us; bah, fie, fie! shame upon you * * * Bah, if I
cannot prevail upon you with kindness, I must try
whether I can do it with severity; see now.

Clerk of the criminal court. Ah, father Cornelis,
do be modest and keep your temper.

Recorder. Yes, converse together with kind, calm
words; for it seems that you will continue to quarrel
and bicker here like harlots.

Fr. Corn. Bah, my lords, and may I not accuse
him of what is true? I suppose so. Did you not
hear yourselves yesterday, that that * * * bishop
of the Anabaptists at first also wanted to deny everything;
but when he perceived that I was so well acquainted
with the matter, he acknowledged that there
were some among them, who taught and practiced
these things in secret, and when I soundly berated
and convicted him with plain and conclusive arguments,
he denied it no longer. Bah, why then
should I not also have liberty to accuse and convict
this one of it? Am I not come here to instruct and
convert him? I think I am. See with what we are
tormented. Why does he deny a matter which
is true? * * * One may certainly talk here, I suppose?

Herm. Then I may also reply to you, that this
matter is not true, because these things are lies; and
I presume that Jacob, my fellow brother did well
reply against it.

Fr. Corn. Yes, until I told him that the Anabaptists
at Amsterdam and elsewhere, in Holland, ran
stark-naked through the streets, men, women, boys
and maidens, and said to one another: “My spirit
desires your flesh.” Bah! was this not a fine
thing, eh?

Herm. No, this was not a fine thing; and hence
we never regarded such as our brethren.

Fr. Corn. Bah! why would you deny it so
strongly; for it is well enough known, that you Anabaptists
do not regard the sacrament of marriage at
all, because for a very little matter you loose and
sever the marriage bond.

Herm. Since you bring so many untrue charges
against us in regard to our marriage, I must ask
you something respecting marriage that concerns
you, and which is certainly no lie, for Paul writes
thus to Timothy, in the fourth chapter (first epistle):
“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter
times some shall depart from the faith, giving
heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience
seared with a hot iron; forbidding to marry, and
commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath
created to be received with thanksgiving.

Fr. Corn. Tush, tush, hold your tongue; for we
do not want any more preaching here; bah, begone,
get you hence. * * *

Herm. If I could be gone from here, I would no
longer listen to your blasphemies and lies.

Fr. Corn. Ah, you accursed, hardened, petrified
Anabaptist, how the devils in hell (whither you will
shortly go) will sit in your accursed mouth, with
burning pitch, brimstone, tar, and Greek fire; just
wait.

Herm. No; but I shall go under the altar which
John saw in his Apocalypse, as is written in the sixth
chapter, to the souls of them that were slain for the
word of God, and for the testimony which they held;
who cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O
Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and
avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Fr. Corn. Yes, the devil’s martyr you will be.
* * * But this preaching would probably last all
night; hence I go to my convent, and let you preach
as long as you will, you damned, accursed Anabaptist,
Sacramentarian, Trinitarian, and marriage dishonorer
that you are; see.

In the meantime one of the aforesaid two martyrs,
namely, Jacob de Roore, or the chandler, while imprisoned,
wrote several letters replete with holy and
divine things, which we deem it profitable to communicate
to the reader; they are the following:





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