Another Letter Of Joost Verkindert, Written To His Dear Wife, And, Generally, To All Brethren And Sisters In The Lord; In Which An Account Is Given Of Several Disputations Held With The Bishop’S Commissary Concerning The Faith.

Know further, that on the 17th of August we were both called down to speak with the bishop’s commissary; and having come down we courteously greeted him, and bade him good evening. He did likewise, asking: “Joos, to what conclusion have you come?” I replied: “I pray the Lord night and day for my greatest salvation, and the more I pray, the greater my assurance becomes that I have the truth.” He said, that it was true I was seeking my salvation, but ignorantly, like the Jews, who wanted to be justified through the law. And, with folded hands, he made a long speech and highly extolled and thanked the name of God, and of Jesus Christ, that he had done all things so well, and had given the holy church so many good ordinances, and promised to abide with it even unto the end of the world. Then Lauwerens asked, where his church suffered persecution. He answered: “That was seen three years ago, when some of our people were killed by the Protestants.” I said: “My lord, if the authorities did not protect your church with the sword, it would soon come to nought, for it has no strength.” He said, that it was of God, and had continued from the time of the apostles to Timothy and Titus, and thence to all the holy teachers even to the present day. I asked, whether the apostles had so observed or instituted them [the ordinances] as they were now used by them. “Yes,” said he, “as regards the faith.” I said, that they were far from the right way; for I had previously shown him, that their ordinances were but commandments of men; and Christ says: “Every plant which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. [Let them alone:] they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.” Matt. 15:13,14. I showed him, that Israel was forbidden to follow their own opinions, but were to observe only what the Lord had commanded; and I told him how severely Saul was punished by the Lord, because he, following his own mind, had spared the king of the Amalekites, and the best of the oxen and sheep. He answered, that Saul did this contrary to the command of the Lord, but they did not; for it was all instituted on account of certain causes that had arisen in the church: even as in the time of the apostles; when there were some that contended, a council was held. Also, that Paul commanded Titus, to set in order the things which he had left uncompleted (Tit. 1:5); and other words. Thereupon I told him of the pious king Josiah: that he did not regard the ancient customs and ceremonies of his forefathers, but that he destroyed all that had been instituted contrary to the law, and commanded the law to be observed aright. 2 Kings 23. To this he had but little to say. I also asked him, saying: “My lord, I am much surprised, that you do not banish us, as they do in Germany the Eastern country,320 and England.” He said: “Whither would you go? for whithersoever you go there you corrupt and seduce the people.” 819 I told him, that faith was the gift of God, and also, that not all men had it. Eph. 2:8. He said: “You did have the faith, but now you have adopted another”; and he added a simile: that we were like soldiers that had run away from their lord without a passport, who were nowhere free. I asked him, whether infant baptism was a taking in into his church. He said: “Yes.” I asked again, why they did not go to Turkey to take in children. He answered: “Nay; this does not belong to them, for they are a rejected people.” I further asked him, by what scriptures they might put us to death; which he assayed to show with the law; but I said, that we were under the law of grace, namely, under the Gospel; and Christ says of the tares, that they should be suffered to grow up with the wheat until the harvest. Matt. 13:30. “He said we have other scriptures, that the magistracy has not received the sword in vain” (Rom. 13:4). I showed him, that the sword was given to the magistracy for the punishment of the evil, and the protection of the good; moreover [I said] I have not been disobedient to the magistracy, but have obeyed it in all according to the power which it has received from God. And when I had asked him, whether he had no other scriptures, he said; “Peter slew Ananias and Sapphira.” I said: “With what, and why?” He replied: “Because they lied.” “That is true,” I said; “for they lied to the Holy Ghost, and had kept back and said nothing about part of the price of the land which they had sold.” He said: “Nevertheless, he slew them with the sword of his mouth.” And though I told him it was done for evil doing, and without the sword, it was of no avail, he would therewith prove his point that we might be put to death, and also added the words of Paul: “I would they were even cut off which trouble you.” Gal. 5:12. I replied, that Paul did not mean such cutting off as they were now doing. He said: “Paul then did not yet have the magistracy on his side.”